Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Update on New Set Up and Velodyne v HSU Compare

Initial apologies for the long post, but I wanted to give a pretty good account for those who are interested. Additionally, I wanted to start a different thread from JSkip's since some of our experiences may start to diverge.

So, there was a mix-up (admittedly, caused by me) when I ordered a package of M60’s, QS8’s, a VP 150, AND an EP175. About an hour after my hasty decision, I called Axiom and had them put a hold on the sub (after further research and a different thread on this board, I decided to order a HSU VTF-2). Axiom said that they would try to hold it up but that the sub may already have gone out with the package. To make a long story short, FedEx got confused with the multiple instructions coming at them and held up the package for a day. This is where I sing the praises of Axiom’s support staff in helping get the package through to me as quickly as possible. I already received the FedEx stickers from Axiom for the auto return to Canada. The good people at Axiom are simply the best support staff I have ever run across.

New speakers: The sound is just too cool for words. I couldn’t be more pleased and thank you all for the excellent and accurate reviews on these speakers posted here and at other major message boards. Packaging was seriously impressive (wasn’t expecting the double boxing). Can’t find a physical flaw in any of the five pieces I ordered. Another surprise for me was the shape of the M60 casing. I read the manual and will have to take their word that the shape makes the most acoustical sense. They look great.

Mounting: I went to Home Depot and bought 250 feet of 12 gauge speaker wire for $65. I didn’t experience any of the flexibility issues that some have expressed with the difference between 12 and 14 gauge. Additionally, since I was so amazed that I could buy good speaker wire for cheap, I went a little nuts with the 250 feet thing, but figure I will rewire my fronts and give the rest to my dad and brother. I ran the cord up the wall behind the receiver, across the attic and down each of the two side walls where the QS8’s were to go. Well…I ended up with a small hole in my ceiling and a couple lungs full of asbestos (I know, I know, I should have used a mask…won’t happen again), but I got it all up and running. The Axiom wall brackets for the rears worked very well. My rear ‘surround stage’ is incredible.

Subwoofer Comparison: So I ended up with two subwoofers yesterday (ordered an HSU VTF-2 and have a Velodyne CHT 10 which was still returnable). Tested both out running a series of movies (e.g., SWI-Pod Race) and music (e.g., general classical samplings from London Symphony and others, Audioslave, Liquid Tension Experiment, etc.). The music was certainly the most telling. Bottom line: the HSU wins by a landslide. For example, during the opening track of the Liquid Tension Experiment’s first CD there is a pretty quick drum riff that lasts for about 30 seconds at least. The Velodyne was ‘sloppy’, almost slurring the beats one over the other. By contrast, the HSU was crisp and clean, hitting each beat with precision and clarity. It really was an experience. Another example, I played the theme track to Crimson Tide (used in many movie trailers), and heard deep notes on the HSU that I never knew were there (must be sub 30hz range). The Velodyne is nice, but there really is no comparison. The Velodyne want back to the store and the HSU is now a permanent fixture.

Calibration: It is my understanding that Radioshack no longer carries the analogue version of the SPL meter (at least none of the ones in Southern California), and I had to go with the digital version. I calibrated using the pink noise generated by my receiver and find that the bass (though matching the Dbs of the speakers) really isn’t to my personal tastes. Am I totally in left field here? Do most people turn up the bass a little? Though I’m not exactly a purist, I’m torn between wanting to hearing the music as it was intended versus personal taste. Thoughts? What do you guys do?

Receivers: I have a new Denon 3803. I see that the new 3805 is coming out next month. Was thinking about returning the 3803 while I still can (it, too, is still returnable for a few more days) and grabbing the new 3805. At the very least, the new remote looks a little less daunting (which helps with spousal approval).

Lastly: Many thanks if you actually got this far in my long-winded post. Not to take advantage of the truly intrepid and/or extraordinarily patient, I would nevertheless like to ask the following: for those familiar with the Denon’s, how do you calibrate audio with Avia? I can’t seem to be able to calibrate the speaker level using third party pink noise (i.e., receiver starts generating its own pink noise before I can adjust the channels).

Thanks, again, for everyone’s support and advice during this whole process.

Enjoy the speakers Ockham! Good call on the HSU.

By the way, for you and others who may be interested, I believe I saw something where Radio Shack has just introduced a new analog SPL meter. The part number (if memory serves me corrdctly) is 22-4050. I want to say it is $40.

On the nose, Ray.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=33-4050

If you look at the top, right side of the page, you'll see a "store locater." Just put in your zip code and you can see if a store near you has them in stock.

I have the digital version also. It does just fine.

Depending on tastes, lots of people turn up the bass a bit.

Also, at lower SPLs, human hearing isn't very sensitive to bass frequencies (compared to other musical frequencies). So, it'd probably sound more natural to turn the bass up if you're not blasting it.

The Denon 3805 has an auto set up feature so that you do not need to use an SPL meter. However, Alan Loft seems to believe that the auto set up features are worthless because they create a flat response in the room (I believe that is his opinion, I may have read it wrong).

Your comparison of the Velodyne and the HSU is interesting. I bought a Velodyne VLF-810 last summer because it cost me $200 less than the HSU VTF-2. The Velodyne has an 8" forward firing woofer and a 10" downward firing woofer. The Velodyne also has a very attractive piano black high gloss finish vs. the black ash colored HSU. I still wonder how it compares to the HSU subs because I think the Velodyne is pretty damn powerful and clean.

AFAIK Velodynes vary a lot based on model. The Velodyne review in this thread may not apply to yours very well.

Also, I think Alan's comments about auto-setup features is that they're not perfect-- that we shouldn't rely too much on them to the exclusion of other calibration. I may be putting words in his mouth, but I don't think he thinks they're without any worth.

But I could be wrong!
I looked at that Velodyne model and was intrigued by the dual woofers. The 10" is passive, right?

Thanks for the input. The Velodyne CHT 10 that I had was forward-firing only. Not sure what effect having both a down and forward firing model would be (other than with respect to have a more omni-directional sound effect), but with the model I ran, it couldn't compare with the sharpness of the HSU. It really was a night/day comparison. Of course, I cannot comment on models other than the CHT 10 since I didn't compare them and note that Velodyne has a number of high end subs that are not in the same range as the VTF-2, but, listening to other posts, have an excellent reputation.

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but I don't think he thinks they're without any worth.

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Raindance,
This is a quote from Alan that can be found in the last Axiom newsletter. It is in regard to the "auto EQ" features currently found on some Yamaha, Pioneer, and (very soon) Denon receivers.

"(Editorial note: Although I didn't receive a demo of the AVR-3805, it's worth noting that doing accurate measurements of listening-room frequency response aberrations is extremely complex, and correcting for room response errors using 8 bands of parametric digital EQ is essentially impossible. At worst, such digital auto-correction schemes have the potential of making good speakers sound bad by "correcting" the frequency response of an otherwise neutral, linear well-designed speaker. Users may mistakenly interpret small level increases introduced by the auto-EQ system as sounding "better," a common result of uncontrolled listening. I would advise enthusiasts to take these auto-EQ systems with a liberal dose of salt, and not base purchasing decisions on this particular feature.)"

While he doesn't use the word "worthless" or the phrase "without any worth" it sure seems that he has no use for them and seems to be warning people that these EQ features could/will do more harm than good because, according to Alan, "correcting for room response errors using 8 bands of parametric digital EQ is essentially impossible". It sound to me like he has a preconcieved notion of the EQ features and is writting them off without having given them (Yamaha, Pioneer,Denon) a proper listen. I would say to anyone who is considering one of these receivers, don't scratch them from the list until you've auditioned one.

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Not sure what effect having both a down and forward firing model would be (other than with respect to have a more omni-directional sound effect)...

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Okham,

Snippy's sub is a sealed design with one powered woofer and one passive radiator (i.e. it's not electrically connected and moves in sympathy with the powered woofer). The passive radiator does the same thing as a port does -- it extends the sub's low frequency response. Here's a good description of how it works.

Glad to here things worked out with Axiom. I guess I will be going to Radio Shack to get a meter also.

I didn't see the 12g wire at Home Depot, so I used 14g. I know it was recommended to use 12 for longer runs ( I am about 35 feet), but I didn't. Can you or anybody tell me what the performance difference is between 14 and 12 wire? Since I already did the hard part of fishing the wire through the walls, should I consider changing to 12?

Maybe I should wait until I get the SPL meter and this is probably a dumb question, but when I play music through all the speakers, the surrounds are apparent. When I play DVDs, they are not so. I attribute this to when I play a CD in 5 channel stereo, it forces music through all the speakers. When I play a DVD, the surrounds only get the signal designated for them. I guess I was anticipating more sound out of the surrounds. When there are special effects in the DVD, it seems like the fronts overpower the surrounds. Does this make sense? Any thoughts? I am expecting too much?

Thanks

JSkip: There will undoubtedly be a noticeable difference when you calibrate the speakers (there certainly was for me). It really made my surrounds come alive. As I'm finding however, the less you are a purist, the more you may be comfortable with setting separate components above your reference level. For instance, I think I prefer setting my sub about 5db above the rest of the speakers. Similarly, you may want to tinker with your surrounds. I promise not tell anyone if you don't. :-)

Re. 12 gauge versus 14 gauge: I was going to use 14 gauge for the same reason. There was a noticeably physical difference between the two wire with respect to thickness but knowing what I went through to get those cords into the walls, I wouldn't change it for nothing (unless, of course, something was really wrong). Since a lot of people have chimed in on the merits of 14 gauge being adequate, I personally wouldn't go through the effort to swap it out.

Thank the Lord this is a three day weekend because I'm having way too much fun listening to my CD collection again. The kids are dancing around the house, my wife is skipping around...who knew the impact this would have on everyone in the family. Again, too cool.

Jskip - you're right about the surrounds, when you are listening to music in 5 channel stereo they are much more noticeable than when watching a movie. They are not really supposed to draw attention to themselves.

On a side note - I have a Pioneer 53tx with the auto-setup feature, and I must say it is awesome. It automatically sets the speaker distance, levels, sizes, and EQ's them to timber match. Of course you can change everything if you don't like it. I have a pair of Energy C-6's that I use for stereo listening, sometimes they can be a bit bright, with the EQ on - it lowers them 2db at 11.5khz. Nice. Of course you can hit one button on the remote and it goes to "direct" mode that bypasses any processing.

fyi, the Hsu subs aren't really "ash" colored anymore. I bought mine about a year or so ago, and at that time they had just started making their smooth black finishes. It's quite a nice finish.

Thanks for the review!