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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
grunt #341216 03/08/11 08:01 PM
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Such pointed social commentary. Have you been reading Hitchens again? Dean? Fess.


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
BobKay #341217 03/08/11 08:06 PM
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I think it is just a copy and paste from a catalog of argumentative fallacies.


I too, try to keep them in mind when I'm having a "discussion" here.


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
ClubNeon #341221 03/08/11 08:30 PM
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You guys sure use the word "fallacy" a lot around here, considering this is a family forum.


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
MarkSJohnson #341227 03/08/11 09:03 PM
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What a fallacy!

Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
grunt #341236 03/08/11 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: grunt
Also Known as: Ad Populum
Description of Appeal to Popularity

The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.


So is it your contrarian contention:

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is false.

Or do you just trot this stuff out when the approval is not something you share?

Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
grunt #341237 03/08/11 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: grunt
Also Known as: Ad Populum
Description of Appeal to Popularity

The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.

The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.

It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.

This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.

This fallacy is vaguely similar to such fallacies as Appeal to Belief and Appeal to Common Practice. However, in the case of an Ad Populum the appeal is to the fact that most people approve of a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Belief, the appeal is to the fact that most people believe a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Common Practice, the appeal is to the fact that many people take the action in question.

This fallacy is closely related to the Appeal to Emotion fallacy, as discussed in the entry for that fallacy.


Very informative, daddy. Isn't this also along the lines of cognitive dissonance?


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
Ya_basta #341238 03/08/11 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: wheelz999
Originally Posted By: grunt
Also Known as: Ad Populum
Description of Appeal to Popularity

The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is true.

The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.

It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.

This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.

This fallacy is vaguely similar to such fallacies as Appeal to Belief and Appeal to Common Practice. However, in the case of an Ad Populum the appeal is to the fact that most people approve of a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Belief, the appeal is to the fact that most people believe a claim. In the case of an Appeal to Common Practice, the appeal is to the fact that many people take the action in question.

This fallacy is closely related to the Appeal to Emotion fallacy, as discussed in the entry for that fallacy.


Very informative, daddy. Isn't this also along the lines of cognitive dissonance?


If the Audyssey feature was one the main reasons on why you made a purchase, then yes cognitive dissonance could occur. Defending a purchase is very common especially on audio and video related message boards and is why so many people spend so much time talking and defending what they own. That is why I do not rely much on opinions but rather objective data.


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
Dundas #341239 03/08/11 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dundas

So is it your contrarian contention:

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. Therefore X is false.

Or do you just trot this stuff out when the approval is not something you share?


Oh, I do so hate reductionism. No, I think that his argument is more along the lines of

1. Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2. This has no bearing on whether X is true or false.

At least, that's MY argument.


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Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
grunt #341242 03/08/11 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: grunt
Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product.


The not so good old Edward Bernays is the father of this concept. Thanks to the help of his uncle, Sigmund Freud, he discovered that people's subconscious desires can be used to sell them products that they don't need. He created public relations which utilizes propaganda to its full extent.

The first implementation of this was used with Aunt Jemima's cake mix. A study was done with women and how the preparation of said cake mix played with their senses.

The results were that the women didn't get an emotional lift, or any sort of satisfaction because they were simply mixing together a prepared cake mix.

As a result of their findings, Edward Bernays and his cronies, simply added an egg to the ingredients. This simple task ended up giving the women a sense of worth because it made them feel like they were doing more for their partner, thus driving their subconscious desires.

The way products are sold to us now, literally stems from adding an egg.

PS. This is my explanation, and I don't claim to be an expert smile.


The only reasonable argument for owning a gun is to protect yourself from the police.
Re: Should we trust Audyssey ?
BlueJays1 #341249 03/08/11 11:51 PM
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Wow, threads around here sure do go off on tangents!


Originally Posted By: Dr.House
That is why I do not rely much on opinions but rather objective data.

I'd be interested in knowing where you would find objective data about something like Audyssey.

The trust, but verify thing (beyond what your own ears tell you) is sometimes easier said than done.

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