Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners M80's VS Swan Diva 6.2

Again, i'm just doing as much research as possiable before i order.

I found an older review (from a real person) not a paid reviewer. That had both speakers in his own home. The room size is close to mine at 16X30. To make a long story short, he loved the M80's for treble, was better then the Swan. But he felt the Swan gave a much bigger sound stage, and the bass hit in him in the chest (basically a better bass feel) This is with the M80 V2 version. This was a 2 channel test. NOT a HT setup. Speaker against speaker.

The are a few things that bother me about this test. His choice of amp, and his speaker placement. He was using an Outlaw 7125 which i'm sure is a fine amp, but geared for surround sound, and puts out a "supposed" 125 watt per. Which is fine for the Swan since it supposedly only handles up to 200watts. but may not be that great for the M80.
He was placing both speakers at 2.5 feet off the back wall, 3 feet from the side walls. Which may be fine for the Swans as everything is front fireing in the Swan, but again, not so in the M80's.
It would seem to me the position of the M80's is more critical due to the back fireing ports. 2.5 feet seems to much to me for the M80's.
Any thoughts about any of this???

The amp power is a non issue unless you want to cause permanent hearing damage to anyone standing at the far side of the room.

You will get more bass reenforcement from the M80's if you put them close to the wall but...

More bass does not equal better bass. Goosing the low end with a tone control will give you more bass too. From memory, the M80's have a -3db point of 36Hz anechoic. In room, that point will be even lower. That will cover 95% of the bass that is available in all music. For most music it will cover 100% of the bass, giving you a flat, neutral response. This is one area where the M80s excel.

Have you checked to see if you can find an M80 audition locally?

Only your ears and your room really matter.

The Swans look lovely, but I fear that many people are seduced by their appearance more than their sound. They are wholly manufactured in China, which matters to me but perhaps not to you.

One of the things I've found whenever listening to any Axiom speakers is a very impressive soundstage. I find it very difficult to believe that the Swan was meaningfully "better" in this regard. Off-axis response is one of the things that Axiom designs to exceedingly well, IMO.

Well i'm in GA so listening to these is probably out of the question.
His coments about the sound stage is what bothers me. But agian, he did not say he tried to move the speakers around, try different spacing from the back wall, or anything else. He did say that the M80's took all his poweramp had to give. Which the underlying note to me would be, he really did not have enough power, for his room size for the M80's. Plus the speaker placement(how far off the back wall) may effect the soundstage for the M80's. I can by some of the bass comments since your dealing with 2 8 inch speakers VS the smaller speakers in the M80, but againg , may be due to power amp and speaker placement.

Well I was not about to run out and buy Swan stuff in the first place. But your statment about them being made in China, dose NOT float my boat at all. The reason my old Polks no longer work is because Polk sent me not 1 but 3 drivers..all made in China..they all do the same thing, POP when to put too much power to them. I can't get the original driver fixed. The China made stuff is JUNK..period. OK with that off my chest...back to the M80's. The position of the speaker 2.5 feet off the back wall seems to much. Probably NOT were i would put it. It would stick too far out in the room. My old Polks sit about 1 foot off the wall. WHAT is the recomended space off the wall for the M80's?????

You do realize Axiom drivers and crossover parts for their speaker line are manufactured in the far east.

The whole made in China is junk is pretty overblown anyways.

It's not made in China that is the problem but the companies themselves cutting corners beyond that of taking advantage of cheap labour overseas. Lacking quality control is a huge problem (costs $$$), substituting out cheaper parts etc to further increase margins. All falls on the company and not the country.

Hi, the minimum distance required is only 2" to allow the port to breathe. Your personal taste and room acoustics will be the factors to determine the right distance for you. It varies from one owner to the other and from one room to the other. Once the speaker is 2" away from the back wall it will interact with the room boundaries as a sealed speaker would.

Hi, Axiom privately owns a small factory in Shanghai where it fabricates some components for its products. The Chinese parts are not outsourced from a third party as it is the case for many companies. Axiom has complete control over the entire production cycle for all its fabricated goods from their design through their final production stage and quality inspection.

OK true..you can't get anything today that dose not have some made in China stuff. Unfortunatley Polk went to China to make an outdated driver, which they didn't have to do in the first place, since these speakers are from 1986, and were discontinued long ago. So they payed nothing for them, and you get what you pay for. They work..as long as you don't turn up the volume..but there pretty much junk.

Ola FredK. The M80s do not come close to 36Hz anechoic. Here's the frequency response plot for M80 V2s from Soundstage!



3db looks to be about 80Hz.

OK, thanks, thats what i needed to know...2" VS 2.5 feet is a big difference, and may effect the "soundstage" big time.
2 inches is of course, pretty much..TOO close, but a foot or so should work fine with these speakers. I have never put a speaker 2.5+ feet off the back wall, not for strict 2 channel stereo music. Maybe in HT stuff that works with 5 other speakers.

But for a strait 2 channel stereo system, i don't see it.
My old Polks sit about a foot off the wall and have a huge soundstage. If i plulled them that far off the wall...that would probably go away.

Fred did say from memory but if you draw a line across at ~88db that little peak around 35hz is the +/- 3db point claimed, a spread of 6db, which is how the claims are usually done. Axiom actually claims 34hz +/- 3db for the M80v3.

Anechoic measurements from soundstage are only anechoic to about 100hz due to the length of the wedges used in the chamber. I would love to see a total sound power measurement on the M80's.

OK...this has nothing to due with supposed mesument in a chamber, or anything else. This was a review form a real guy, in his house. In the end he went with the Swan due to the soundstage and possiable better bass.

My point was, he had maybe an under powered amp and the fact the speakers were placed so far off the back wall.

Nobody has seemed to address these issues...don't care what happens in a closed chamber..real life playing of the speakers, in a real house is what it's all about.

No criticism of FredK intended. The way I read that plot, it looks to me that the M80s are about 10db down at 37Hz.

Anechoic doesn't include room gain. A speaker that has a flat graph in the bass measurements in an anechoic chamber will sound bassy and boomy in a real room.

Is that the case for all rooms?

First an unpaid reviewer is not necessarily an unbiased reviewer. People often associate attractive speakers with better sound, AV123 is was a perfect example IMO.

Before deciding to keep them I compared my M80v2s to several brands, including Paradigm, B&W, AV123 and Focal and w/o a doubt the M80s had more midbass punch (the chest thump) than any of them. I later listened to the Swan Diva 6.2 (not a direct comparison) and did not feel they were comparable to the M80s in midbass punch or detailed highs. They did have what I would call a softer more forgiving quality that sounds good to some people especially for acoustical music. OTOH the Divas just did not do loud well. A standard comment I’ve read from owners on various forums.

As for the sound stage the M80s seem to me to be the most finicky speakers I’ve ever listened to when it comes to placement. When Sean brought his speakers over (don’t remember the brand) and we did a direct blind (not double blind) comparison with the M80s on the inside position first they sounded very narrow. When we change their position to the outside the soundstage opened up immensely. One notable thing about the M80s soundstage I’ve noticed is that they project out at you. Where Sean’s speakers created a soundstage that curved back away from us the M80s projected their soundstage out into the room. Similar depth just different directions.

If you’ve narrowed down your search to these two speakers the only way you will know which you like better in your room, with your equipment is to order both compare them yourself and send back the ones you like the least. In these speakers price range return shipping is nothing IMO compared to peace of mind that you made the best choice for you.

I'm getting deja vu.

The funny thing is AV123 was a retailer of Swan Diva back in the day. If the comparison was back when AV123 was a retailer years ago it is not relevant to the current product which has been redesigned within the last year according to their website. I'm not sure if ownership is the same as well. And comparisons of speakers you read such as that one at AVS are purely anecdotal. And to try to comment on someones stories is anecdotal as well so it doesn't really help anyone.

Grunt offers excellent advice.

I'll pass on the "vs" part for lack of reliable info. On the anechoic measurements, as has been mentioned here several times, the size of the wedges in most chambers doesn't allow for reliable results under about 90Hz and deep bass extension can't be determined from this.

Room gain(only one of several room effects)can exist to some extent in all rooms, but the smaller the room and the more tightly it's enclosed the stronger the effect and the higher the frequency at which it begins. The "room" that's best for this bass gain is the inside of a car

I suppose that I should add in response to Bob that except for multiple output channels, of course, HT amplifiers aren't in any significant way "geared for surround sound" and have to meet the same quality standards.

Also, there's nothing "supposed" about the power rating. If it didn't in fact measure to that standard it'd be in violation of the FTC amplifier power regulations.

Amp power is a non issue. In an average room, at a distance of 10', to get to 85 db, you will need somewhere in the range of 4 watts. 85 db is louder than most people listen. Note that this takes into account room gain.

If you want another 12 to 15 db of headroom you are up in the range of 30w. Note that would give you peaks in the range of 100db. Push the average listening level up to 90db (hearing damage territory) and you are up to about 90w.

Back to the short answer. Power is not an issue.

Well, unless you are out on a dock in Muskoka and you wanna hear the music from the other side of the lake

Thank you Grunt, that was the answer i was looking for. Placement of the M80's has alot to do with the soundstage. Which is fine. I was never sold on the Swans, in fact the reviewer even noted that they can not reproduce the treble like the M80's. Doing LOUD well, is a must in my case. I had a feeling the Swans were going to be lacking in that department.

It's very hard to find a speaker to compare the M80's with in this price range, the Swan stuff was as close as i could get.
The M80's would be replacing my old set of 1986 Polk SDA1C's, which i can no longer get fixed. The Polks do produce a large soundstage, which i hope the M80's can match.

I have no fear about the M80's being able to match or exceed the Polks volume levels, the Swans i was not so sure about.

Bob, the general consesus with the M80s has been that they are a little finicky with placement. Having done the listening with Dean and hearing the difference in sound, I completely understand now. Dean and I heard the same and were quite surprised by the dramatic difference in the soundstage with a slight movement in set up.

It may take a little bit of work to get them situated properly, but once you do they will perform like champs. And, as for loud, the M80s will ROCK. They are absolutely clean at loud levels.

Thank you St_PatGuy.

I had a feeling these speakers were more prone to placement issues. Not a problem for me, and i'm sure i can get them set properly within a few hours of listening. I did not understand the one reviewers placement of these speakers at all. But even with the bad placement, he still had to admit the treble responce was much better on the M80, then the Swan.

Some speakers the placement is easy, some you have to play with, not a big deal. To be honest, i'm not sure alot of people understand that.

Placement and room interaction may be two of the more important factors in getting the best sound out of a pair of speakers.

Sadly, I think many overlook the importance of the listening space.

I am looking at these speakers to only reproduce music at it's best. A strait 2 channel stereo system. I have no interset in HT junk. Most people now adays seem to be into the HT thing, buy speakers, because they look good and the wife likes them, then place them where they think looks good, in there HT setup.

I have a 50 inch plasma..i don't need some bomb blast to blow my ears out. TV is TV...I don't need a 2k system to watch Starwars.

I want Bach to sound like Bach, and AC/DC to sound like them off a live cd. Thats all i care about.

Pity.

I think your comment on HT is a bit simplistic.
You want a good pair of speakers to reproduce the music that you like to its best, some people don't give a crap and will buy a Sony stereo system at Bestbuy for $200 and find it amazing.
Some people will buy a HTIB and be happy with it, some people want their HT to reproduce the movie soundtrack as close as possible to what the sound engineer intended, the same as for music.
I, for one, really enjoy watching a movie and hearing all the background sound of a city or a forest filling up the room and making me feel there, the same as I enjoy my whole room shaking if I am watching an earthquake. All of this, along with music fidelity, is for me the joy of having a HT.
Even if your interest is only in music, you shouldn't underestimate what a processing like DLPII can do with a good set of speakers. You're talking about wanting AC/DC to sound like them off a live CD; pair your M80s with QS8s, put on their Blu Ray or use DLPII on your CD and it won't sound like a live CD, it will sound like you are there, live, and part of the crowd.

OK my statement about HT may have been a little rash. I'm sure a great HT set up is wonderfull. But not what i need or what i'm looking for. I only need a 2 channel set up, to play CD's or Vinyl, to give me the best real life sound i can get for the bucks.

OK sorry but i don't care about the room shaking for the earthquake, But the cannons on the 1812 i do, I want to hear the stings, on certain passages. I'm only interseted in music reproduction..at it's best. I'm hopeing the M80's will deliver that.

Out of curiosity, have you ever tried multi-channel music on a good speaker setup?

Well yes, i have an old set of Advent studio monitors, that i can use as a 4 speaker setup.

But again, i'm old, a 2 channel analog nut, want to sit in the sweet spot, and expect my speakers to deliver, the major sound i want.

I'm sure a big HT set up is great, but i don't have the money for that nore want it.

The way I enjoy this hobby is to get as much performance as I can out of 2 channel stereo. I never feel that I am limiting myself. caveat: I may get a sub some day for watching movies

In about 2 weeks I will have a new pair of M80s sitting alongside my 50 inch plasma. I will let you know how I make out.

I was a two channel, well 2.1, guy for the longest time. Just last year I ended up making the jump to a full surround set up and could not be happier. I wouldn't ever want to go back to just stereo. The difference is huge and that is in a good way.

Bob, you would be VERY hard pressed to find a set of speakers for 2 channel listening that will sound as good as the M80s for the money you spend on them. This isn't to say that there are no better speaker than the M80, IMO, there is/are, but for this kind of money I haven't found a set yet.

Bob, along with Bruno, I have to comment that your view about "strait 2 channel stereo" isn't very realistic. My own listening is almost entirely classical(including Bach, which I'm listening to at the moment on the KUSC stream)and I'd never consider limiting myself to listening to 2-channel source materials on only front speakers when surrounds are available. Most of the sound at a concert comes to us as reflected ambience from directions other than the front. This is picked up by the mikes and has to be mixed into the front channels in 2-channel source material(there's no place else to put it). A mode such as DPLII detects the phase differences in this mixed-in surround material, extracts it from the front channels and directs it to the surrounds where it belongs. This makes the overall listening experience a little closer to reality and more enjoyable. The difference can be immediately appreciated by suddenly switching on the remote from surround to stereo and hearing the sound field collapse toward the front.

Don't knock it until you try it Bob.

I don't know how deep in the frequency range the cannons dig (others familiar with this piece might comment) but you might consider M22s + sub as well. Agree, it's not a pure 2.0, it's a 2.1 but at least it will play lower than the M80s if need be.

You get M80's then add the sub if you are going to go 2.1

i urge you to carefully consider the size of that tv you want to buy, Lampaxiom, i did buy a measly 42in. 3 years ago, and have regretted it since then because i'm kind of a lazy guy, and the thing is that this 42in. is very tiring to watch as before, with the small screen one, i only had to move my eyes to scan the whole screen, now i have to move my head, which spends way more calories, and i get neck strain too.
The doctor told me to not move my head, but instead to move my whole body to look at different parts of the on screen image.
Prevention is better than cure.

you have been warned!

:-D

i know, i know, Lampaxiom isn't going to buy a tv soon;
i got out of bed recently and still not fully woken up.

Curious. How close do you sit that you have to move your head for a 42" screen?

Somewhere there is a web page showing recommended ratio's for screen size vs. distance to maintain comfort. Unfortunately, a quick Google couldn't find it for me, but it's out there.

I think he must sit 5 inches back.

Bobt, I have to agree with you on generally, well almost always, preferring two channel music in stereo with some rare exceptions like Drone, or Goa Trance styles. However . . .



If you really want to feel like you are in a concert then adding surround speakers (no center necessary if sitting in the sweet spot) makes well recorded concert SACDs, DVDs and especially now Blu-rays feel like being there. When I first put together my HT system I had a friend, who’s a part time sound engineer for local bands, come listen to some stuff including a live DVD 5.1 of Lead Zeppelin. He was totally blown away at how “live” it sounded with “realistic” time delays for he echoes coming off the back wall of the stadium.

I’ve had similar results with a recording of Roger Waters in Berlin on SACD, and Toto on one of the best Blu-ray concerts I’ve ever heard. Had Blu-ray not come out I would probably not suggest 5.1 or 7.1 for music as SACD and DVD-A seem to have been dying but well mixed Blu-ray concerts are simply amazing and given the option are always my first choice over 2ch now if available.

OTOH, I’m not a big fan of Dolby PLIIx and such for well recorded 2ch music but others have differing opinions of that.

I have a 3.1 system. L/C/R + sub woofer. I used to like music in 2.0 or 2.1 stereo the best. My Center was a vp100. Since my center is now an M2 + VP100, I like it best in 3.1. It's all in the sound quality. The extra center speaker added enough detail that now that sounds the best.

Five inches.....That's how far away I sit. But I don't need to, nor can, stretch out my legs for comfort.

about the eye/head motion for lazy types watching tv, i though it would show through that it was a joke.

i know about the on line calculator, and have used it as a basis for choosing the distance where i sit.
i sit at the "sweet spot", around 62 ins. from the monitor.

I prefer 2.1 for music.

65" is minimum screen size for me. I sit about 13' from the screen in my office. If I could squeeze a 72" there, I would, but the towers and equipment rack would make things a bit tight.

Well don't get me wrong. I have nothing against HT or a multi speaker set up. In fact I have used my Advents, in a 4 speaker setup with my Polks. But in the room i'm dealing with now. I have a big bar at the other end of the room.
Even with the broken Polks i can feel the bass going thru the bar. To hang speakers over the bar, with the M80's would probably knock all the glasses out of the bar...LOL Plus would be far too much for anybody in the room, except me...LOL
I have no TV down there, and don't intend to put one in there.
It's more of a guy drinking, music room...LOL but don't tell my wife that. I'm very happy just to pull up a chair, grab a beer..just sit and listen. I don't think the M80's require a sub, at least i hope not. Thats all i'm really interested in.

I don’t use a sub when listening to 2ch music only dedicated mutli-channel tracks with separate LFE channel.

Sorry Grunt, i'm just an old fart 2 channel guy and have no clue what you mean about LFE. I "assume" this would mean i have to have a different amp, preamp..even cd player. Which to be honest, is not going to happen..but what is LFE?

Sorry, LFE is the “.1” in 5.1, 6.1 7.1. It stands for “Low Frequency Effects,” and is IMO great for movies, but doesn’t add much to music for me except for things like kettle drums or pipe organs. Neither of which list high on my musical preferences.

My M22/EP350 is crossed over at 80hz with M22 set to small. I notice a huge difference when I switch my EP350 on and off during music only playback.

Maybe with M80's there's not that much of a difference then.

A couple times I’ve turned my EP500 off at the subwoofer and forgot to turn it back on until I put in a movie I knew had certain LFE in it. Otherwise, the only way I can tell when the sub is off while playing music is that the bass from the M80s is “tighter” and “punchier” because of a low bass 20Hz hump in my room which limit’s the SPL I can use with the sub and not have it sound like crap unless I’m using EQ like now.

Thank you Grunt..now i understand...LOL

My setup as it is right now.
Onkyo M-504 poweramp
Jolida JD-100A cd player
Adcom pre-amp
I do have an old turntable, but i did not bother to hook it up at this point as most of my vinyl is so scratched, and so old, it's painful to listen to. That may change..

This is my setup as it stands, and probably not going to change.
This is what will fire the M80's.
For my 2 channel needs, this pretty much fills the bill.

bobt, I think you will like the M80's.

This probably isn't the viewing distance chart you're talking about, but I love it anyway

Interesting that graph even shows 1440P, I thought the next level being considered was 2200P or something like that, as 1440 offers so little improvement visually over 1080 even on large screens.

Just a question about what comes with the M80's. I "thought" there were 2 sets of feet supplied. The rubber ones and carpet spikes. But i don't see that, and carpet spikes are not in the accessories part either. Do they no longer recomend spikes for these speakers?

Also depending on what pic's your looking at, some have bi-wire, setups, but the pic's on left side of the paige, show a single hookup. Is the bi-wire gone?

Both the extra feet and buy-wire are now options you can choose when using the Customize button to place your order.

I just sold a set of Swan 6.2s and plan to buy either another set of 60s or 80s, just not sure yet. I had the 6.2s for almost a year and personally, I have been very disappointed in them. The mids were good, the highs were OK but in my room, there just wasn't any bass. They did sound like they were beginning to strain at higher volumes but at volumes I couldn't listen to for very long.

I've had the 60s and my brother just bought a set of 60s. We both think they sound better than the Swans. All in all I am glad to be rid of them.

Now I need to figure out what to get-60s or 80s??

Strange, the dual 8's would seem to be able to put out bass, but the high volume thing seems to be a problem. They just don't seem to do that well.

I never felt that there was any significant bass. It was there but not what you would expect. My brother's 60s put out quite a bit more with smaller drivers.