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Possible upgrade m22 to v60
#369427 03/12/12 06:57 PM
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Hello everyone, just wanted to get your thoughts on a potential upgrade here. I currently have the M22 v3 bookshelf speakers in my 14' x 15' listening space (the room itself is 14' x 22', but the furniture is 14' x 15') and I think they're fantastic. The detail is wonderful and I love their colorless presentation. I'm looking to upgrade though, particularly to achieve more soundstage. I have a great subwoofer already, so I am not very concerned about bass below 60 Hz. I would, however, enjoy a cleaner crossover (right now it's hard to ignore the jump from the M22s to the sub). I don't have a ton of room to vary speaker placement. My M22s are about 6' apart and about 10' from the listening position. They are about 12" from the wall. I could go at most about 1' in either direction sideways and not much further away from the wall. I'm looking at the M60 v3 as a candidate. Can anyone comment on this potential upgrade?

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369438 03/12/12 09:21 PM
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Sheburon, I think you'll find that a book shelf speaker will give you better imaging and sound stage than a floor stander with a more complicated cross-over.

M22s and a good sub are a tough to top combination.

My office system has a pair of Michaura M665s (same 6.5" and 5.25" drivers as the M60/M80 and same 0.75" titanium tweeter as the old M1 and M0 speakers), VP150 center, Dahlquist 15" subwoofer, a pair of Mission 77ds side surround speakers. My office is pretty small, about 14 x 17. That system pressurizes my office pretty spectacularly.

So, if it is a matter of volume and bass slam which appears to be coming from a wall of sound in front or side surrounds, then go with the M60s.

Bottom line, M60s are bigger and will make you feel better. But, a pair of bookshelf speakers and a good sub may be better for 2 channel (2.1) music.


Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.
Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369442 03/12/12 09:40 PM
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How do you have them set up and what sub do you run?


Rick


"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369456 03/13/12 01:35 AM
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I will add this question, do you have the M22s and sub properly calibrated? I have compared my M22s w/ PB13 Ultra sub compared with M60s and thre is very little difference. I suspect your soundstage issue might be due to the 6' spacing between the M22s and your listening position of 10'. The speakers should be spaced apart as close to the same distance you are listening to them. You could also try adjusting the toe-in or out of the M22s to see if that helps.


Jason
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Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369462 03/13/12 02:12 AM
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Sheb,welcome. There's no good reason to expect "more soundstage" from the M60. The same mid-range and tweeters are used and the dispersion in the directional mid and upper frequencies would be essentially identical. For a somewhat wider soundstage you should separate the speakers wider, to at least the 8' you mention as being possible.

As to the sub/M22 crossover, if you have a "great" sub there should certainly be no "jump" with an 80Hz crossover. There's none with my M22s and EP500; the crossover is entirely smooth. The M22s are strong to below 80Hz and any decent sub would be good to above 80Hz.

So, there doesn't appear to be anything supporting the M60s as an actual "upgrade" from what you've described.


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Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369464 03/13/12 02:21 AM
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Hmmm. I guess my VP160 didn't add anything into the equation when I added it to my M22's. WRONG! I now hear more of the mid bass that I was missing in certain concerts, like Police Certifiable, especially when I have the cross-over set to 50hz.

Theoretically it shouldn't make a difference, but my ears say otherwise. Small differences do make a difference.

Last edited by CatBrat; 03/13/12 02:24 AM.
Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369499 03/13/12 12:18 PM
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Hey Brian, I believe they were talking about a strictly stereo plus sub environment. I don't see where anyone said that adding a center would or would not change things for him. That would be a whole other discussion. A good discussion, but different.

I would also be curious to know what sub you are using and how hot it is running. My EP500 does blend nicely with my M60s but from the specs and what I have heard of M22s, I see no reason why it would not blend equally as well with those.

Now in contrast, I tried using an old Sony HTIB subwoofer that I had left over with a second set of M60s in another room. Even though it was less powerful, by the time you turned it up loud enough to make a difference in this large room with M60s, it sounded way too boomy. Although it could play loud enough for this very large space, it was far from musically satisfying and I removed it altogether.

I could see how a similar scenario might lead you to believe that there is a "gap" between the two. It may not be a gap. It may just be that you need to calibrate your sub to match or that it plays a bit more 'boomy' than the detailed M22s.


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Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369503 03/13/12 12:35 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I have the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus and have my crossover set to 60 Hz. I think part of the reason I notice the crossover is not because of a different in volume or tone, but because of a difference in SPL. If I turn the sub up any more the pressure becomes a tad too high for my taste and if I turn it down more I lose volume. This is most evident on jazz recordings where the double bass player makes runs up and down. The transition of the actual tone and volume is fantastic, but I think with larger woofer drivers from a floorstanding speaker, the difference in SPL will be more smooth as well.

I've experimented a little with the placement of the M22s in the past, and toeing them in did help. I will try to place them wider and see what I find.

Thanks!

Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
sheburon #369504 03/13/12 01:20 PM
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Hi sheburon,

With the M22s, you should be using an 80-Hz crossover frequency to the subwoofer; 60 Hz is too low a setting.

Regards,

Alan


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Re: Possible upgrade m22 to v60
Murph #369507 03/13/12 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: Murph
Hey Brian, I believe they were talking about a strictly stereo plus sub environment. I don't see where anyone said that adding a center would or would not change things for him. That would be a whole other discussion. A good discussion, but different.


Not upgraded from a stereo environment, but from 3.1 to 3.1. My last center channel was a VP150. Sub is EP350. EDIT: My prior point, but, unstressed, was if I experienced a change by swapping the VP150 for a VP160, then it would stand to reason that you would also hear a similar change by swapping the M22's for M60's.

Sonically, 80hz sounds the best, but I like the added bass effect sometimes by lowering it to 50hz. 2 examples is the movie Tron Legacy, and the concert Police Certifiable.

Pioneer with it's 6 storage areas for sound doesn't store the crossover point. You have to choose one of the 6 and a crossover. Too bad they didn't make it easy to have, say, #1 as 80hz, and #2 as 50hz, etc. The way it is, you have to dig several layers deep in the menus just to find and change it.

Last edited by CatBrat; 03/13/12 01:46 PM.
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