Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater New HT for a newbie

OK, here goes. I have made many searches and read a hundred or so posts as I try to get the feel of this site and the available information contained here before I start a new thread and waste any of your time. (We could be listening to music. I don’t do well keyboarding when I’m cranking the tunes.). My first three questions are not answered in the messages that I could find. My forth question is answered only indirectly by positive comments on other brands of subs (SVS/Hsu). I will follow my questions with some background for those of you that don’t mind taking an extra minute to see why I am asking.

1. What is the efficiency of MK 750 THX speakers?
2. How does this efficiency compare to the Axiom M80?
3. What is current opinion here on the comparison of MK and Axiom?
4. Should I order a different Sub than the EP350 that comes with Epic 80 system?

I read with interest Hawkson101 link about their journey to the local stores and the list of speakers looked at. MK fell well down that list but contrary to that opinion I found the MK 750 THX very nice. The sound stage was very wide and the vocals were high on stage even though the 750s were relatively low on the optional stands. The high end seemed bright the first time I listened but on following trips back to the store with my own CDs in hand (Old fashioned Rock) I found the brightness not to be an issue. I auditioned the MKs with a Denon 3803 (110x7) and they sounded great but I didn’t think they played as loud I had hoped. I had the volume set to zero db, which I believe to be only 18 db from the top. I assumed that this was due to the 4 ohm current hogs that I’ve read about, but after reading other posts here and reviews elsewhere I now believe it may not be the 4 ohm rating in and of itself but the lack of efficiency of the MKs. I am purchasing the Denon 3805 (120x7) and planned on buying the MKs next month when the 3805 arrives. I was all set to write out the check, until yesterday, when an Audioholics Review turned me on to Axiom. (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/AxiomAudio_Epic80a.html)
I can’t preview the Axioms (unless there is someone in Spokane willing to help) but then again I can’t find a bad review anywhere and you all just may have convinced me that I need to reconsider my MK purchase. If any of you have more info on the efficiency rating of the MKs compared to Axiom or share your opinions on how they compare, it would be most helpful. It would give me a good idea since I listened to the MKs extensively.

What I didn’t see here was as much support for the EP350 Sub. I planned on ordering the whole Epic 80 set and even considered ordering 2 of the EP350 subs. I see Hsu and SVS mentioned as a better speaker or was it just a better value? You folks tell me. The sub that I was considering with an MK purchase was the high rated V-125. I am a “matching set” kind of a guy and would prefer one order, one matching finish, etc. Thanks for helping me put together a new HT!

Being a died-in-the-wool Macintosh guy, I was amused to see your moniker. I have attached a link you can check here to see if you have an audition opportunity in Washington. Looks like there is one in Ephrata. If that doesn’t work for you, drop Amie an email and she might be able to hook you up.

Let me suggest you also stop in [url=http://www.audioreview.com/SearchResultscrx.aspx?forumchoice=&forumchoice%5B%5D=&sortby=&do=process&s=&query=&Index=&showposts=0&searchterm=Axiom&section=ByBrand here [/url] for another set of reviews.

I don’t know much about MK speakers, but I am a happy Axiom M60/VP100/QS8 guy, and I drive them with a Denon 3803. (Congrats on the 3805 BTW) I’m not sure what your volume requirements are, but I have not been able to max out the speakers with the Denon. I’ve tried a couple of times, but I can never remember the volume setting I reached when I finally regain consciousness,. Then I need to spend time cleaning up the insects and dead birds around the perimeter of the house and lose interest. The main difference between the 60s and 80s is head room/louder volumes the 80s afford (there will be more input offered from others based on this statement ), so you might want to give Axiom a call and discuss room dimensions and what the room opens into. If the room is too small, the 80s might be too much speaker.

As far as subs go, SVS and HSU do then as their line of business. They are excellent. I don’t know how the Axiom subs line up, but I have an SVS and it is special. Certainly there will be opinions added here, so I won’t dwell on the issue. The additional review site I provided above may be of some assistance for the sub discussion. There really is not a “matching” issue relative to subs – they just do their thing. The subs also require understanding of the dimensions and the playing environment.

In any event, welcome to the discussions and enjoy the hunt.

In reply to:

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Being a died-in-the-wool Macintosh guy...

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You too?

You dog!!!!! When I saw IT/Network in your profile, I quickly assumed that you were on the dark side. Wow, Axioms, an MX-700 remote and a Macintosh. Is this heaven (or Iowa)?

I'm actually a light/dark-sider. Mostly dark at work, mostly light at home.

I'm a light side at work/light & dark at home. They don't make Planetside for the Mac!

Kind of makes you wonder what percentage of Axiom owners are MAC users. I sense a great disturbance in the Force. Or it could be gas from lunch.

Sounds like it's time for a poll!


'Course, this could get ugly.

Now look what I started. If many Axiom owners are indeed Mac users I best be buying Axioms not MKs. BTW the MKs do seem a bit PCish, i.e. industrial looking, used by most studios, many unnecessary models, large company image and etc. No really, I just want the best speakers kind of like I wanted the best computer!

While putting together my HT system, a co-worker of mine was likewise putting together his.

I opted for Rotel and Axiom, he opted for Anthem and M&K.

I spent close to half what he did. He came over soon after we were both finished with our systems. He left very angry with himself.

Now that's a recommendation. Your coworker must have bought even more expensive M&Ks than I'm looking at. I am at about $2350 for MK and $2413 fro Axiom. That tells me that even if I spent more for MK than I have planned I would still be very likely to be happier with the Axiom. I don't want to be like your coworker and walk away angry after I purchase the MKs and that's for sure.

I would caution you to check out the Axioms before you commit to them. Some people (bizarre as it might sound) don't like them so much.

Me, I don't like M&K so much. Maybe it was just the environment or the high pressure salesguy, but I found them to be rather harsh. They didn't move me like Axioms or Magnepans (or Revels) do.

If anyone has any older Macintoshes that aren't being used, they'd like to sell, I'd be interested in buying them. I like to take them out on the back lawn and smash them in a million pieces.

You IT guys are all the same, my way or the highway!

Do you get all your ideas from Office Space?

ok, I admit it -- maybe I just need to wear more flair.

It's the wrong day, but it looks like someone's got a case of the Mondays.

Thanks very much Ray. I have tried the links you gave me and have talked to Axiom. I didn't get into room specs yet since I was still trying to decide between M and K and Axioms. Based on what I have read here and recommendations from folks like you I think I am going to buy Axioms except for the sub. I have tentatively decided on an SVS 25-31 PC+. I will see what I can find in the forum for room size and try to narrow down between M60 and M80. I haven’t ordered yet because I want to make sure my 3805 is delivered before the speakers so that my 30 days doesn’t start counting before I can listen! Based on what I hear there is almost no chance I will need it but I will take the safe route.

Excellent Randy! I'm glad I was able to help. Let the folks at Axiom walk through the room size dimensions and speaker choices with you. I think you'll find quite a spread of input on the forum for the choice between M60/M80 based on room size.

Your choice of an SVS sub is also a good one, but let me ask - did you talk to the folks at SVS? I had decided on a 25-31 PC+, but they talked me down to a 20-39PCi. This saved me some $$$, but most important is that 1) they gave me the straight skinny, 2) they spent 40 minutes on the phone with me to determine what the best choice was and 3) displayed the kind of Customer care that Axiom gets well-deserved kudos for. By the way, I have a 16x22x10 room that opens into a 14x20 kitchen. I have the gain on the 20-39 at about 45% and there is plenty left if I need it.

In either the PCi or Plus line, the 20-39 is an excellent choice between the 16-46 (goes lower) and the 25-31 (more headroom for volume). I eliminated the 25-31 because top end volume wasn't a priority (and that extra headroom would take you to skull-crushing LFE anyhow). The 16-46 went away because there isn't enough 16hz LFE out there to worry about. The 20-39 was the Goldilocks choice for me - just right. I'm mentioning all of this to you to see if I can interest you in calling SVS and allow them to fine tune your choice.

I subscribe to the theory that spending money on HT should yield something you are happy with - not "almost happy". On the other end, I stop spending when I begin to pay for things I don't need (beyond happy) or that only the dog will be able to enjoy because of her heightened senses. There is yet another saying that "You can't have TOO much bass". My preference was to get enough LFE , but not buy more than I needed. Sift through all of it and get the sub you need (or just want).

Keep us up to speed with what happens going forward. Do you have any idea when the 3805 will show up?

pmbuko,

a case of the mondays??? have you ever seen 'OFFICE SPACE'...

in the words of the red-neck neighbor,"NO, HELL NO MAN.. I DO BELIEVE YOU WOULD GET YOUR A$$ KICKED FOR SAYING SOMETHING LIKE THAT"...

love that movie..

bigjohn

wait, i skipped a post.. of course you have seen it..

thats what i get for surfing during my first hour at work..

i need more coffee..

"I'M GONNA GIVE HER MY OOOHHH FACE"...

bigjohn

Ray, you hurt my head. You keep making me rethink what I’m doing. (Thanks!) I don’t mind you encouraging me to talk to SVS at all. In fact I’ve done so but only by email. I sent them a diagram of my HT room, which for having a fairly large house is a very small room. Its only 12x16 plus a 3-½ foot triangular section added at the end. In total that’s only about 213 square feet with an 8-foot ceiling. I also sent them some photos to give them an idea of my layout. They responded 3 times to me in two days! I initially told them no more than the fact that I wanted a “round one” and that money didn’t’ really matter a lot but I didn’t want to waste any either. They fired back with a few questions, I think the key one was at what volume do I listen and the other was how much pipe organ music do I have and what genre to I normally listen. I told them that I love reference level listening but the WAF is low at that volume so I don’t do it often but I love to crank it when I can. I told them in my reply that I listen to mostly rock with some classical. I think my comments on how I like reference level influenced their recommendation of the 25-31PC+. I too think that the next one up from the 25 in either the PCi or the PC+ may be the way to go. A little loss in SPL at normal base frequencies but better low-end response is indeed a good compromise. Based on what you have said I may want to consider between the 20-39 PCi and PC+. I don’t really mind the extra two hundred difference. Since I’ve never done this before, is it possible to have too much of a sub? Is it possible that I would prefer the 20-39 PCi over the plus? Since I haven’t talked to them on the phone I will do that next as soon as I get a chance and will let you know what input I get.

I paid for the 3805 two days ago and it should be here on April 5th!

I will tackle the M60/M80 decision next.

Hey Macdiehard! I used a Mac for years when I did video editing...so if that gives me any kinship then welcome brother On that last note of 60s vs 80s...I can tell you right now that you'll likely end up with the 60s. With that size room there's no doubt the 80s can be overkill. The 80s need a lot of room to breath and my room was right on the edge where it was deemed that I could go either way and mine is 15x20x15. I ended up with the 60s.
The two biggest issue you run into with the 80s in smaller rooms are listening distance from the speakers and speaker placement is "said" to be a little more picky for the sweet spot. And on it's "more than 60s side" it has more detail on the high end and a deeper bass response. But with either sub you go with...you'll more than cover the low end. And as far as the detail, the 60s got plenty. So again. I'm here to tell you that you'll be told 60s...BUT...this is American...enjoy your freedom

Randy, there is pretty much no such thing as "too much sub" and you can control the gain with a simple twist of a knob. If the $$ don't matter, by all means, go for the PC+ rather than the PCi. BTW, I think you will appreciate the 20-39 since it goes lower.

I have both a Mac and a PC; IMO there just is no comparison. However with all my sailing, navigation, maps, charts and GPS firmware updates I got pretty tired of having to do all that stuff using Virtual PC on the Mac. Apple’s mistakes in marketing remind me of Sony’s mistakes with Beta. Now the higher quality format is dead. But who cares these days…tape is dead.

Thanks for the pointer. I was just assuming that if I bought too much speaker I would just turn them down. Sounds like too much speaker affects how they perform as a unit. Would going to the 60’s change my selection of the center? When I decided to replace my old Pro Logic receiver I didn’t originally plan on purchasing speakers as well. It compounded the decisions I had to make so I’m going about this kind of linearly and backing up where necessary. I will definitely talk to Axiom before ordering. If I get the 60s I can always use the extra money to move to the 20-39PC+!

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that I am purchasing a better system than I would have done by myself. And I have all of you to thank!

When it comes to the center channel you have more flexibility. It's not prone to the issues that the 80s have. The 80s are A LOT of speaker (not to mention they play in 4 ohms which not all receivers are capable of). You're getting more in the 150s vs the 100s. Here you'll have a similar comparison as between the 60s and the 80s. More detail, more volume capacity. But here's a case of turning it down (if needed) for balance will do well. The center channel is THE most important speaker for movies. 70-80% of the sound (dialogue) will come from it. So...I'd go with the 150 personally. But I believe them to both be excellent units. Many people who have the 60s have gone with the VP150 as their center channel, so it's a fine match.

I spoke with Eric at SVS yesterday. Eric indicated that his first thought was just like yours, the PCi would be plenty. However when I indicated that I really do like reference level, whenever I can get way with it, he understood why Tom (also of SVS) went with the PC+ recommendation in a response to my email. Eric went along with his recommendation to the PC+ when he knew that I would like to have reference level SPLs when I have the chance. The other advantage Eric saw was at lower WAF listening levels (which would be most of the time) you can tune them down, get more lows and still have plenty of output. Then when the wife is out of town and boys come over for cocktails, toss the plug(s) in the corner along with the cap off the whisky jug and let 'em rip. You could also pull the plugs when watching dynamic movies and the WAF is higher for loud movies as opposed to loud rock.

Ray, regarding your thought of the 20-39 PCi, Eric had the exactly the same things to say. Eric said that since I want a more normal listening level most of the time, he would recommend that I move up one level in either series to the 20-39 PC. That way I would have plenty of low frequency for my normal listening but when I needed more output for a movie I could toss the plugs. Eric said there is a noticeable loss in db at normal base frequency but indicated that I would still have plenty of power to compensate.

So with all of that I plan on taking your advice to move to the 20-39 and since I like the tuning feature of the PC+, I plan on going with 20-30PC+. With the higher out put of this model I plan to tune them down to 16 Hz or lower depending on how I like the sound. So unless someone turns the back-up beeper on I will be ordering the next piece by tomorrow. Thanks again.

Excellent!! I'm excited for you. Once you get everything delivered and hooked up, you won't believe the impact.

Hmmm.. All this light side / dark side talk has me confused.

What side are us Unix geeks on? The flip side? The egde? Yeah, I think the edge is probably right.

At home, I'm a dark sider. M$ ripped off so many Unix ideas and commands that I can run XP in command prompt mode and forget all about being on the light side. At least when I accidentally type "ls -l", XP still gives me the listing I want.

Besides that, I actually like Bill Gates. He is a shrewd guy that took the cards he was dealt, and played them to the max. I envy, despise, hate, admire, and wish him well all at the same time. He won the game, period. That's why most of us can't stand him. I sure wish I were him.

Mac, FWIW - I'll give another heads up on the 60s.

Thanks for all of the sub talk folks. I will be ordering my SVS this week. I was thinking 20-39+ until the Ultra came out. The pictures of the Ultra driveron their web site make me drool - it's not pretty. Seems to me that it would be bottom proof on my (or anyone else's) system. Did SVS even mention the Ultra when you called, Mac?

I'm not sure if any of you saw this but it's kind of neat to hear them talking about the guys in the control room. SVS on TechTV .

SVS actually recommended that I go for a PB2isd rather than the 20-39PC+ because for an extra $75 I will get an extra few DB out of the PB2 (tuned to 20hz).

SVS 20-39 PC+ ordered 3/28/04!