Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions RECEIVER FUNCTIONS

hey guys, still learning, so be nice.

i have to admit that i get down right confused by all the 'features' that are being claimed on all the web-sites for the various receivers.. (DENON, HK, ONKYO, YAMAHA)..my question is...

WHAT FEATURES ARE ESSENTIAL FOR MY NEW HT RECEIVER TO HAVE??

there is dolby digital. dolby digital EX, pro logic II, logic 7, DTS, ES, HDCD, THX, YPAO, etc... i keep seeing the words 'discrete', and 'matrix'.. honestly, my head is spinning so fast, i dont know either to $hit, or get off the pot.. please give me some general guidelines that i need to ENSURE my 'receiver to be' has??

just for reference, i will be purchasing M60's, 150 center, and QS8's.. in my ignorance, i have already purchased a cerwin vega LW-12 sub. i know, bad choice, will fix later, but i got bigger fish to fry now.. my room is essentially a 25x25 square.

as far as the receivers go, i am leaning toward DENON. cause i am a vinyl hound, and the denons are the only one to offer phono hook-ups, with out getting out of my price range.. specifically, the 1804 and 2803.. but am even more confused there, cause the 2803 is $300 bucks more, but looks to have the same functions?? $500-$600 bucks is about my limit.. remember, i still got $1500 in speakers to buy.

thanks for any and all advice.. sorry post so long..

bigjohn

i added a pic.. just wanted to see if it worked..

I know how overwhelming this all can be, but just keep reading and learning. Slowly, it'll all make some sense to you.

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly, but the Yamaha 1400, and Onkyo 701 both have phono inputs, and can be found in the $600 neighborhood. Almost any of the receivers from the manufacturers you mentioned that fit your budget will have the basic features you'll need, and should include phono inputs.

Dolby Digital, DTS, and THX are the common "discrete" 5.1 formats found on most DVDs, and available on some HDTV broadcasts. Your speaker choice is a 5.1 setup, so your receiver need only be a 5.1 receiver. If you plan on expanding your setup to a 6.1 or 7.1 setup (an additional one or two rear surround speakers), then you might consider getting a receiver that will handle the extra speakers.

Dolby Digital Surround EX, DTS-ES discrete 6.1, and THX Surround EX are "discrete" 6.1 format version of their 5.1 cousins, adding a rear surround signal. There aren't a lot of DVDs encoded in these formats..............yet.

This might help you understand the difference between "discrete," and "matrix." (might not.)

DTS-ES Discrete 6.1
With the addition of the surround back channel, this new format has all 6.1 channels recorded independently for a completely discrete digital format. Since all channels are recorded independently, high fidelity surround playback with the increased feeling of a separated sound space is achieved.

DTS-ES Matrix 6.1
This format has the surround back channel matrix encoded and inserted into the left and right surround channels so that at playback the output for the left, right, and back surround channels are decoded using a high-precision matrix decoder.

Dolby Pro Logic and Pro Logic II are systems that synthesize a 5.1 format from a basic stereo signal. DTS Neo:6 does the same only in a 6.1 format. Logic 7 does it in a 7.1 format. Some folks like 'em; some folks don't.

YPAO is a system found in Yamaha receivers that help you calibrate (balance) your speakers. Some on this forum swear by it, some don't. My Onkyo 797 doesn't have anything like it so I calibrate manually with my trusty old radio shack SPL meter and Video Essentials DVD (some use Avia). It's not that difficult.

Hope this gets you started, and hopefully others will chime in with additions and/or corrections.

Welcome to the wonderfull world of Home Theater. All you have to do is decide whether or not you want to be able to listen to your source through a bunch of DSP programing as the Yamaha's have or if you plan on just listening with out a bunch of other decisions needing to be made ie arena sound mix or rock or game etc. All the receivers that you have been looking at would be a great choice some of them just offer more listening options. They all have at least 5.1 dolby available. The YPOA is a speaker equalization system that the receiver does automatically. It is supposed to make it easier to adjust all the speaker levels the same, some say it works great others are saying it works but the speaker settings still needs some tweeking after using it.

I have the Denon 1804 and it works great with M22's, QS8's and VP100. I looked at the 2803 as well but just couldn't justify the extra $, for what appears to be a little better power supply and some electrical parts. Some would say have a listen to all and then decide which one you like best. I'm sure others will offer their advice as well. Hope some of this helps.

Just to restate the good information Ajax gave,

'Discrete' encoding means each channel is treated separately. 1 channel, 1 speaker.

'Matrix' processing means that a channel may be played on more than one speaker, or that more than one channel goes on each speaker.

Essentially, there's more 'processing magic' in matrix which is, as I understand it, mostly used to play sound through more speakers than there are channels. I.e. Dolby Pro Logic is a good example of matrix processing, as it takes a 2 channel signal and mixes it for 3 channel output.

Hope this helps- if not, let me know.
Mike

Looks like you got some great info on the different formats, now I get the fun part of finding some bargains for you.

#1 - if you haven't ordered them already, get your speakers from Axiom's factory outlet. That'll save you 10% right off the top. You'll likely not find a flaw on them.

#2 - Dakmart is an authorized seller of Denon refurbs. You'll get the full factory warantee, and pay a lot less. Their site isn't the best laid out site I've ever seen, but your buying a receiver, not their website.

#3 - Audiogon is an online electronics classifieds site. LOTS of great stuff available here at terrific prices. Pretty much all the stuff is being bought/sold by audiophiles with upgraditus. That means it's not very old, was used with the utmost care, and is only being sold so they can buy the next latest and greatest thing. Their illness is your gain. I bought all my Rotel gear on audiogon and saved hundreds of dollars.

Good luck and have fun!

In reply to:

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All you have to do is decide whether or not you want to be able to listen to your source through a bunch of DSP programing as the Yamaha's have or if you plan on just listening with out a bunch of other decisions needing to be made ie arena sound mix or rock or game etc.

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The Yamahas have some great and some pretty um... dorky DSP programs (Concert Hall, Jazz Club, Rock Concert, Disco, Game, Music Video, Mono movie, etc...)

I find I use 6 Channel Stereo for most stereo/mono listening, stereo for other stereo/mono listening when I don't want to hear the center or surrounds and then straight decodes of any of the cinematic stuff.

The phase-rejection algorithm for 6 Channel Stereo is top notch and does a beautiful job though, I have to give them that.

Bren R.

i just want to say thanks to all for the input.. other than buying a car and a house, this will be the most expensive purchase i have made in 10 years(the whole HT system).. so you can understand my hesitation.

i am beginning to see that almost ALL of the receivers have basically the same functions, but certain brands have 'special' bells and whistles to make claim that they are the best..

i will check closer into the yamaha and onkyo brands for phono ability.. i was very disappointed that the HK's did not have.. that is essential to me.

spiff- thanks for the 'bargain hunter' sites.. saving a few dimes always helps.. especially with a baby on the way.. not trying to hijack my own thread, but i am in a similar situation as one other guy posting.. trying to convince my wife that i NEED this system, while trying to reason it with an august 13th due date..

my research will continue, thanks again.. and two thumbs up to whatfurrer, who has graciously allowed me to come audition his axioms.. now all i have to do is get to austin to hear them.. dont worry furrer, i am coming..

and this is just the first of many posts from me with HT questions.. once i get all the stuff in my living room, i know i will have a hundred or so set-up questions..

bigjohn

John, here is a link from the Denon site that gives you an in depth compare of the 1804 and 2803. The main differences are :
1) The 2803 is 7 channel, 1804 is 6.
2) 2803 has "better" sound processing elctronics.
3) 2803 has more inputs
4) 2803 has better/more crossover flexibility
5) Main difference is that the 2803 is a pre/pro if you want to add a separate amp later.

tomtuttle drives his setup with an 1804 and is pleased with it. I have M60/VP100/Qs8 with an SVS sub and was driving all of it with an 1803 and that was more than adequate (just found an absolute steal on a 3803 and upgraded ). An 1804 ought to be perfect for you.

ray,

i think i agree with you totally there.. as far as the comparisons..

1. 5.1 will be fine, i dont think the wife will allow 2 more rear speaker anyway..
2. i will only have 3, maybe 4 inputs..
3. crossover on the 1804 goes down to 80hz, alan never really suggests anything much lower than that.
4. as far as 'better' processing electronics, i honestly dont think i have the 'ear' to tell that much of a difference.. going from nothing(what i have now), to awesome(what i will be getting), i think 1804 will be just fine.

i am still gonna check out the onkyo and yamaha with phono inputs, but i am almost completely sold on the denon.. i think now, it just basically comes down to price.

thanks again, and anymore input from DENON owners is appreciated..

bigjohn

I agree that 5.1 would be fine, but of that list of differences, the bass management limitations of the 1804 concerns me just a little. Yeah, 80hz is the usual "standard", but you're getting the M60ti towers, right? I cross mine over at 60hz usually, sometimes I've been known to lower it as far as 40hz when listening to music. You can get a 2804 from Dakmart for about $200 under msrp.

As far as getting the system with a little one on the way, I say get it now. Once that little guy (gal) arrives your priorities will be changed forever and you'll likely never be able to justify this type of expense again. (Not to your wife or yourself!)

Congrats on the new system, and especially on the new family member.

I agree with Craig on the crossover. My Onkyo is fixed at 80Hz which, fortunately, is an acceptable crossover point. However, if I ever "upgrade" my receiver, I will definitely get one with a variable crossover.

(LOL "IF, I ever upgrade......" Of course I mean "WHEN.")

BigJohn, I have a Denon 1802 to drive my M60s, QS8s and VP150. It works great. I'm sure you will be happy with the 1804. And like me, if you don't have the 2803 or 3803 (or whatever the models are), you won't know what you are missing. I'm still so blown away with the sound of the speakers, it's hard to imagine it getting much better.

I hate reading Ray's comments about the 3803, because I start to get a little upgrade itch and it's hard to resist.

John

BigJohn,

Congrats on the soon-to-be-parenthood. Is this your first? My wife and I are expecting our first in Sept. and we're your typical new-parent-to-be simultaneous combo of psyched and slightly freaked out. Actually, that's just me; my wife is that new-mom-to-be combo of psyched and nauseous.

Anyhoo...receivers, right. I just got a Denon 2803 about a month or so ago and I'm loving it. I was also considering the Yamaha 1400 and the Marantz SR5400. Lack of phono-in killed the marantz; and some (admittedly apocryphal) accounts of Yamaha over-stating their power specs led me to the Denon. I also briefly considered the 1804, which I understood to have the same power/channel as the 2803, just fewer channels. I figured 7.1 would be more useful down the road (the rears can be used as a separate zone, whereas a single rear center can only be a rear center, right?) For me, it was one of those "are you really going to miss the extra $$$ a year or two or five from now?" arguments.

I'm totally with you on the eye-crossing effect of sound-processing alphabet soup. I think the good news is that pretty much all the receivers at this level are going to have the basics covered, and add in a few proprietary DSP modes. The 2803 seems to know what it's doing when I play a movie (Dobly Digital, nothing w/ DTS yet). Otherwise I go back and forth between Direct and 5-channel stereo. I might fool with the DSPs at some point, but they weren't really a deal-breaker one way or the other.

HTH,

Roger

bigjohn - what did you finally decide? We're all on the edge of our seats waiting.

John - I'm in Arlington - if you feel like auditioning before buying, please send me an email.

well ray, thats a good question. i have been doing some investigation into the Onkyo 701, and have expanded my choices.

i found the 701 online for $439, which seems exceptional when looking at its features.it is equivalent to, and even exceeds some features on the Denon 2802 and 3803.. so there in lies my new challenge. direct comparisons between those. the 3803 is actually out of my total budget, so that will make the selection a little easier.

if anyone has any input on the Onkyo line of products, please express them here. most of the talk in here is of HK, Yamaha, and Denon.. very little on Onkyo.. i would appreciate any info.

shrubber- this will be my second child. we have a 6 yr old son. i am hoping for a girl this time.. we wont find out the sex until may.. due date is aug 13th. good luck with your pregnancy.

arlington- i appreciate your offer. i still have a few reservations about purchasing a speaker that i have never even heard.. but all ya'll cant be wrong.. i dont know the next time i will be in the metroplex, but i will definitely keep your name in mind. thanks..

bigjohn

Wow! $439 DOES sound like a good price for the 701. I don't know what to tell you about my Onkyo TX-DS797. I've had it a couple of years now and haven't had a problem. In another thread they're talking about Onkyos running hot, but I haven't noticed mine being inordinately hot, and I only have about 2" clearance above the receiver. Of course, I don't push it real hard (listen at loud volume for long periods of time), so that might be a factor.

As I mentioned above, my 797 has a fixed crossover point at 80Hz for the subwoofer. I do wish it was a variable crossover. I just went to the Onkyo web site and took a look at the manual for the 701. It has a selectable crossover, with points at 40,60,80,100,120, and 150 Hz. That gives one some options.

I'm very pleased with mine. I know Chesseroo has a 797 also. Maybe he'll chime in with his thoughts.

I have the Onkyo 601 John and it's doing a great job for me with my m22s, vp150, and qs8s. Audioholics has a review of the 601 with axiom speakers here.

Some say that Onkyo's run hot, but I have not noticed any problems with mine and it has not cut out. Also, that price for the 701 is really good. Good enough that I would wonder if the dealer is legit and what the warranty would be. If it's all legit I'd go for it (though I just got my 601 in December so no upgrading that for a while).

John, where did you find the 701 at that price? James has a point about the warranty. If you buy from an unauthorized dealer, Onkyo will not honor the warranty. I've heard others say that they will, but I can't tell you if that's an accurate statement. I took the chance and bought mine from an unauthorized dealer (I'm poor), and have been lucky enough not to have any problems whatsoever. I don't think it's a HUGE gamble. Electronics from a reputable manufacturer are most likely to be just fine. But the possibility exists that you could get a lemon. Therein lies the gamble.

Also, at that price it might be a refurb (factory refurbished unit). I own an Onkyo refurbed CD/DVD changer, and have had zero problems with it. If money is tight and, again, the manufacturer is a reputable one, it's even less of a gamble to buy a refurb than it is to buy from an unauthorized dealer. If refurbed by the manufacturer, the refurb comes with a warranty the manufacturer WILL honor.

Keep us posted on what you decide.

james,

great review..very informative.. i reckon the 701 would be that good and better.. more power, few more features, and more inputs/outputs..

i am starting to lean toward the 701.. DENON people, dont be haters..

bigjohn

ajax, yea, i am with you there.. i have heard plenty of horror stories about unauthorized dealers..

i saw it on MacMall, which is an authorized dealer. it IS a factory refurb, but still comes with the 2 year warranty.. so no concerns there.. its a scratch and dent special, but as long as the electronics work, i dont have a problem with a little scratch.. i am like you, POOR..

still doing research, but starting to lean that way..

bigjohn

Yeah. I just did a search and found it for the same price at eCost.com. It, too, was a refurb, but they gave no details about the warranty. They did provide a link to email them for more warranty info. But you've already got the warranty info from MacMall. Still a good deal. Keep doing your homework. You seem to be on the right path. Good luck.