Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Is ANYBODY streaming music through their AVR?

I know that - for several years - Denon, Onkyo and other receiver manufacturers have offered "Network Streaming" on some models. I'm primarily asking about accessing a FLAC and MP3 library stored on a shared, local drive, although I do also like Pandora.

I've had a hard time finding information about the stability of the connection to the network server and the overall usefulness of the interfaces. I mean, there is a difference between "it can be done" and "I like to do it this way".

If somebody made one that I could control with my iPad, that would be even better.

I'm currently using a Squeezebox. It's the right idea. But Logitech announced end-of-life for that whole platform, and it's not as stable as I'd like.

I'm considering Apple TV, but I'm really not an iTunes user.

So, I guess the question becomes, once you've got a big library of music, how do you listen to it at home if you're NOT using a PC?

Thanks for your help.

I plug my iPhone into the front RCA jacks on my AVR.

I figured it'd be appropriate to remove the "Thanks for your help" part of the quote.

Hi Tom. I did not know that Squeezebox was EOL.
My SC-05 is older and does not do network streaming. I can stream from my PS3 using the built in UPnP server in my NAS where all of my music is stored, however this is a clunky interface and not very user friendly.
For me the best music solution is still the Sonos system. Not cheap for sure, but simply works and has a great interface through iPod, PC or whatever you choose to use. Squeezebox may do this too (I have no idea since I've never used it), but I love the way Sonos can seamlessly blend into one rolling playlist my local music and songs from the web such as Songza, Slacker, Pandora etc... Plus party mode through the whole house with multiple zones running in perfect sync is pretty cool and fun.

Medic8r's post just reminded that with the controller on your iPhone, you can wirelessly send the music on your iPhone to the zone you are controlling and distribute to any other zone. Pretty slick stuff.

Tom, I gotta say that I use iTunes with an Airport Express (selected for both the AirPlay feature and an optical output). My good ol' Onkyo 706 unfortunately doesn't feature AirPlay like many of the current receivers do.

That along with the free "Remote" app for iPad is a fabulous combination. Full access to the entire iTunes library, practically any way imaginable.

A well organized iTunes library is a beautiful thing.
I suspect that Ken will agree.

That said, I've not used other streaming solutions, so I don't have a real basis for comparison.

As well, it bothers me to no end that Apple continue to elect to not support FLAC directly, so I end up jumping through some hoops to get my FLAC songs (which I keep) into a format that iTunes will import. Still, it's not difficult, just a bit of a PITA.

A few of my colleagues use Airport Express and it does work very well - and much cheaper than Sonos for sure.

Kruncher, instead of FLAC can you just use ALAC instead? Since you're tied to iTunes, why use FLAC if it causes you pains?

FLAC is the file format that I usually receive.

I described my favorite conversion process in another thread some time ago.

Yeah, I may be studying that thread hard, later.

Is there any advantage to using an Airport Extreme (or whatever it is called now) rather than Apple TV? Let's assume I'm going to have iTunes running somewhere on the network and controlling the audio via the Remote app on my iPad.

I just don't see me implementing Sonos in this house due to the cost. "Maybe in our next house" is code in our family.

JP, I'm not above that kind of approach, but I'm looking to access the whole library in hi-fi. Having the storage capacity of a portable device be a limiting factor just seems like a fatal flaw to me.

Thanks, gentlemen. And JP.

No, if you can take advantage of the AppleTV box features, and need/want them, then there's no reason not to choose it for marginal cost increase from the AirPort devices, AFAIK. In my situation, I initially wasn't going to use the device with a system with a TV, only audio. And the apps that I'd probably use on AppleTV were available on my Xbox anyway.

iTunes currenly tells me that I could listen to my library for 27 days straight and not hear the same song twice. It's like having your own radio station with nothing but your favourites. And better sound quality.

I use the Airport Express/Remote App as well. Very stable except when the microwave is running. Interupts the stream every time. Other than that, I love it.

One of my favorite features: When friends come over with an iPod/Pad/Phone, I give them full access to my library to choose whatever they want to listen to. AND, they can push music from their device to my receiver.

I'm gonna need more storage...

Off to the FLAC conversion thread.

Oh, and where is iTunes for dummies?

Hey, that isn't just my microwave then! Good to know as it happens to me too. Should've mentioned it.

iTunes for Dummies

Our microwave disrupts the signal from the router downstairs to our laptop upstairs - kicks it offline immediately until it is finished. Then the laptop magically works online again...

TAM

My pioneer suppposedly has Airplay, I've never tried it yet.
I just plug my iphone directly into it via USB

When you say end of live, does that mean all their streaming devices? I just got the Touch, and it's been working very well.

I AM YOUR FATHER!

Yes.

http://blog.logitech.com/2012/09/28/an-open-letter-to-squeezebox-fans/

Explains why I got my 2 Squeezebox Radios for $100 @ Xmas.

I find them useful. Hopefully I can use them for the indefinite future with Spotify and Pandora.

Tom, for streaming, I tend not to use my AVR. I use my AppleTV, Roku or Tivo, since those have much better GUIs to navigate. I don't normally listen to my own content, I just stream so Pandora and Spotify are sufficient.

The Airport Express is a good option too. Airfoil works well with it.

I have been streaming FLAC through my 3808 since I purchased it. I initially used a Linksys NAS that worked great for a few years then the controller died on it. I was able to pull all the files off the hard drives at which time I had set up a DNS 323 as my server. I hacked it as per the many sites and ran Twonky server on it, as it turns out this was what the Linksys had used as its server program. I have just recently set up an old PC with WHS 2011 and am presently looking for an add-in to use to stream my FLAC files from it. Although I am not really needing it as my iTunes library is offered up to play with no problems, but the audio snob in me keeps me looking for a nice add-in, JRiver looks to be a good candidate so far although I haven't looked to see if it will run on WHS.

I also can stream using Plex on my Mac (works on Linux and Windows) as the server. Roku and iOS devices have Plex clients. Plex is a GREAT option.

Jason, how do you like the UI offered by the Denon?

Nothing special, it does the job. It just shows little file icons beside the file names. I have seen newer avr's that have much improved graphics, IIRC, there was one that used the cover picture as the background, but I can't remember which avr that was or if it was a new (at the time) media player.

Plex is looking very nice have to decide if it is worth the slight bit of effort on my part to get it to run on WHS. Serviio is next on the tryout list.

I took a different approach. I have a dedicated computer strictly for music that has no internet access, but just network access. All of my files are on a NAS down in the basement. I then take over the computer using microsoft remote assistance with my laptop. There are no blips because I am not actually streaming anything; it works pretty good. I also have a Songigo Sirroco that I use sometimes, and it works well, only with the odd pop now and then. It supports any file because it is basically a virtual sound driver.

Cheers, Brendan

I do similar. As mentioned, I have a Squeezebox for music on my main floor and I love it, but I never purchased a second for the basement as my HTPC is connected directly to my AV gear there and it also acts as the Squeezebox server and player for the downstairs system using XBMC as an interface for movies, music, TV etc.

If not in front of the TV with my Blutooth keyboard, I use an app on my tablet, Splashtop Remote to control it via my WAN. It works well (as long as you don't try to contact them for thier useless support) and it's free if you don't want access from outside your LAN.

I also have not set up remote access through my firewall. I don't see the need for another hole when I'm always carrying some kind of portable player with me anyways, be it an iPod, tablet or my work laptop.

I have been using a Squeezebox for quite a while. Works great.
Yep everything is in FLAC

I have been streaming via (a) airplay on itunes to either my Denon 4520 in the main room or 1713 in my office. Combine this with the remote app (and a strong wireless signal when I am outside) and it works well.

I also have 4 apple tv's at various locations in the house. I could push out airplay to them or pull the music via the cloud. Again another great option especially with netflix. This saved my a lot of $$$$ versus a whole home contol system.

Again, many thanks to those of you that have contributed.

You've basically confirmed my assessment. It appears that - to get what I want - my best alternative may be Apple TV with iTunes continuously running on a networked machine. Which probably means converting 200 GB of FLAC files into something that iTunes likes better. Bother.

My wife bought me an Apple TV for Christmas. It is definitely the way to go especially for movie rentals.

Why is Roku or Apple TV better than what comes bundled with most components now-a-days? My TV, BD player and my Receiver all have the ability to stream movies, etc. So, why pay money for one of these devices?

My goal is to control network music streaming with my iPad.

That's one step away from SkyNet.

Which, let's be honest, is one step away from a giant dude in your living room cutting his arm open in front of your kids.

We already have that thanks to the wonders of image projection.

tom, i currently stream music to all of my receivers/pre-amps. i have all onkyo devices, 2 receivers and 1 pre-amp and all of them are network ready. they are all connected to a cat6 gigabit network run throughout my house. i can operate any of them from either of my iOS devices via wi-fi and control them.

they are all connected to a 2tb NAS that is also connected via cat6 on the network. with modern receivers, it's very easy. i stream FLAC, MP3, WMALL & iTunes music throughout the house on any receiver or all at the same time. I can even connect to the NAS with my oppo 83&93 players and play music.

music resolution is from 44.1khz/16bit to 96khz/24bit and i have no trouble streaming any of it. the iOS app i use most is OREMOTE, but, i also, sometimes use Onkotron. Oremote is by far the best of the two.

most of the big name receivers offer network streaming and apps for iOS & Android devices to control their receivers. almost any DLNA or UpNp NAS (Network Attached Storage & Universal Plug and Play) device will work. i recommend hardwired networking simply because, no matter where you are or who you are, wireless can be interrrupted by the strangest things. the most sure thing is wired, if you can.

if your gonna go wired, use cat6 and a gigabit router & switches to keep gigabit speeds from end to end. best of luck.

Thank you very much!

Okay, NOW I remember what part of my problem is/was...

I really like to be able to play music in Zone 2, and to do that while playing a different source in Zone 1, I need the music source to be analog not just digital.

solarrdadd, do you know if the Onyko's suffer from this same limitation? i.e. if the receiver's D/A converter is busy with an HDMI source in the main room, can you still stream music using the receiver's native network capability to a second zone at the same time?



Well, that's intriguing. Do you mean that you can synchronize the stream between devices? I'm trying to NOT introduce another receiver for the second zone, but I suppose if I am completely seduced by some application, I could buy more hardware.

I will try to find more information about Oremote. Thank you!

I share your preference for copper. No problems there at the moment.

I'm looking at Apple TV, but it has only HDMI and optical outputs. Does anybody know the price/practicality of converting that TOSLINK to analog using something like this thing from Monoprice? (Assuming that - in zone 2 - I do not believe I will be able to hear the difference between this device and something that is more costly).

Do you have some kind of server software running on the NAS or is it just basically a Samba share? That is, do you have anything else managing the network streaming besides the Onkyos and a dumb storage disk? (yeah, I know only enough about networking to be dangerous).

Thanks, again, everyone.

It's just a DAC, innit?

Onkyos are still analog only.

Well, yeah, but "just a DAC" is fightin' words for some people.

Thanks for the Onkyo update.

party@dans radio.

Sonos is the answer. Supports FLAC and is a standalone product without having a computer on. Can Work with NAS or other storage. Check it out.

Apple sucks. Once they got you, they got you........

"InTheMixRadio" has a nice sound.
That is until the kids in the studio decide to chime in.
Fairly odd mix between what I believe to be french, english and dutch? tunes.
Very few songs are out on typical top 40 lists, played everywhere, etc.

Yes to just about any IP device that has a UPnP/DNLA client.

As you surmise receivers, pre/pro's, TV's, Blu-Ray players and media centers now all come with streaming clients. I find these proprietary clients lack the features and robustness of the open source alternatives.

All you need is a server that streams audio (or video). There are many such options from open source media server software like XBMC to proprietary solutions from Apple.

The benefit of the client/server approach is you probably have a computer that can act as a server. For example a windows box can run something like Tversity (tversity.com) or if you have XBMC running it can mount smb network shares or other file services and stream the contents to clients.

My current solution is a dedicated XBMC media center in the living room that connects to the media file server over a gigabit wired network and acts as a streaming server to devices and as an airplay service for devices. Any device that supports the protocol can connect to xbmc and thus access all the centralized media files. This was all done using off the shelf standard components.

gord

Well, this is as good a thread to bump as any, I guess.

Those of you following my saga know that I recently got a projector (yay!) which precludes replacing my receiver "soon" (boo!).

But I'm still not satisfied with my music consumption experience. Murph has been kind to counsel me via PM (warmest thanks, Andy), but I want to spread the frustration a bit more broadly.

You guys should know that technology has now basically passed me by. I'm not a network engineer, I'm not a programmer, and I need pretty step-by-step instructions to do much of anything. I like to learn and willing to spend time, but don't start with "sudo get". Or maybe DO.

My existing Squeezebox *almost* works. It satisfies these requirements:
-Controllable from a mobile device (Android phone and/or iPad)
-Accesses and plays FLAC and MP3 files
-Outputs digital and analog signals
-Easy to use

What it doesn't do is actually WORK consistently. I'm having a lot of trouble getting my Squeezebox and Pandora user ID's to work consistently, and either the Squeezebox or the server don't appear on the network consistently, so I'm perpetually waiting, restarting, waiting, etc. before actually hearing any songs. I'm about ready to break something.

I've tried - with mixed success - to use Apple TV. It's a good interface and a good device that is already integrated with everything else. The problem is that I OFTEN have trouble with "Home Sharing" that I can't seem to solve. The device seems to know my username and I think I have everything set up correctly on the other machine, but it just doesn't connect. Exacerbating this problem is that our HBO Now subscription is associated with my son Andy's Apple ID, not mine.

I have an old, spare laptop. I also have a really nice HTPC-form-factor Silverstone case with antique hardware in it.

I have the computer upstairs running ALL THE TIME anyway just in case either the iTunes sharing or the Squeezebox sharing decides to work that day. I might find it comforting to just move that whole operation to the living room.

How are you guys listening to music?

I have all my music sitting on a Synology NAS drive in .flac

That sort of limits my choices as Apple does not play friendly with that file format. My solution to this was I got an Zotac Zbox HTPC with windows on it and installed FooBar2000. it connects over the wired network to my Synology and will play all the music through the optical cable out to my pre/pro.

I also have all my video's and media tv shows (as I refuse to pay for cable). For that I run on the same computer a copy of Kodi (XBMC) that sends the video and sound out through the HDMI to my pre/pro.

The beauty of this option is that it is possible to stream the music to a different zone at the same time as watching something from Kodi. I have MediaMonkey on my iPad that does all the music streaming very well, and a remote app for kodi also on my ipad.

Thanks, Matt. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and advice.

Does MediaMonkey on your iPad do anything with the NAS-stored content, or does it only airplay the content stored on the iPad?

I was looking at Kodi, although I might be more inclined to KodiBuntu for a variety of reasons. Do you enjoy the UI?

Do you like FooBar2000?



I need more info on this. What receiver are you using? I ask because one stumbling block I've run into is that most receivers seem to only have one DAC path; in order to get content in Zone2, I have to supply an analog signal to my Onkyo 805. I know I've wallowed around in this question at other points, and I apologize if you've already advised me.

Thank you again for your help.

If you are referring to the net function on most new AVRs, Check them out. They've got any kind of music you can dream of, also from any part of the world and the quality is great.
I'm hooked on the net only section at the moment "commercial free" just hours of what ever you chose.
My AVR uses abetterradio.com.

MediaMonkey is the iPad app to control FooBar2000. Sadly foobar only comes in Windows. I have tried to run Foobar via Wine on a KodiBuntu machine but I have not worked out how to get it to launch as a background service and have Kodi running in the forground. After 2-3 weeks playing with it I gave up and went back to windows.

FooBar is sort of like JRiver except it is free and it seemed to work very well for me. So I stuck with it. Also, at the time JRiver had a fully function Windows, partial implementation on the Mac and NO working Linux version of itself. Recently that changed but I have not bothered looking again.

So foobar is the player of the music, or more to point, it reads the flac file and decodes it and output it through the optical port on the back of my Zbox HTPC. It has a great catalog function and with mediamonkey worked great to find the songs by song/artist/album/genre/file directory structure. it didn't need me to read anything to figure out how to work it. +WAF


If I was to re-invent what I have working now I would look to the linux play system that they are putting in the AxiomAir. it runs as a background service and should implement far better with Kodibuntu. Dont remember its name and can't be bothered right now to dig through that thread to re-find it. Or it might be part of the kickstart page.. don't remember.

Inspired to look around by the AxiomAir, here is another DIY streaming project for someone who has been looking for a reason to fiddle with a Raspberry Pi
Rasberry Fi

I haven't tried it but it sounds promising.
- Access to media on USB drives or NAS
- a good choice of compatible remote control apps.

For less than $50 to get a computer that runs on free software, I've been looking for a reason to by a Raspberry Pi. This Fi OS just might be it.

Add a USB DAC for those who feel the need.

Great idea, Murph!

I will take a look.

I have all my music (flac) on a cheap NAS, the NAS is running a DLNA server (which comes with the NAS), my receiver is network/DLNA capable - so I just press 'Net' on the receiver and choose the artist/album. I love this setup and haven't loaded a CD is years.

(DLNA can be a headache with video, but it works seamlessly with music. I attribute that to low bandwidth requirements and fewer format variations.)

What kind of receiver are you using, Cork?

And are you controlling playback from the receiver's remote or some other mobile device?

Do you have to have your display (TV) on in order to navigate your music collection successfully?

Hey Murph. Have you looked any further into this? I'm looking for a simple inexpensive way to replace my livingroom PC to send music to my aging AVR. It looks like the project supports spdif out and I think this is the easiest way to stream to my AVR. Don't really feel the need for a fancy DAC.

I've been looking at this a bit this week. It appears that the RaspyFi partners had a bit of a falling out and now there are two, similar projects - Volumio and RuneAudio. All of those guys seem to be pretty fixated on Fidelity, with quite a lot of attention to I2S boards and DACS that cost as much or more than the Raspberry Pi itself. I haven't really seen the web control interface, which is really the key element for me.

I'm also looking at various forms of and platforms for Kodi, which is the new name for XBMC. I really need the audio only thing, though.

The other thing I've been fiddling with is Roku, Plex server and rarflex. But I really want a solution that doesn't require me to use a display like a TV to control the music stream.

I'm starting to think that the approach Murph suggested is the way to go, but I'm a little nervous about how geeky it is. And I'm going to have some money into the hardware by the time I get the Board, DAC, power supply, case and whatnot. I'm not convinced that the headphone jack from the Pi is going to be good enough, and I have my own reasons for not wanting to use the HDMI.

Sorry tt, I don't visit the forum regularly.

My receiver is the RX-V673. I usually use the receiver's remote, but I've used my Logitech universal on occasion.

I keep my TV on because it's the easiest, but the receiver has 2 or 3 lines you can use to select a song. It would be hard to browse, but you could select something if you knew where it was.

There are a few tablet apps (for Apple, Google, and Amazon devices). Now that you mention it I'll give the Google one a try; with any luck I'll have time tonight.

By the way, I've also used a Roku3 to get to the music. And that's easy to set up also. There are tablet mirroring apps for the Roku too.

I have to add, I think using the heavy-weight 3rd party apps, like Kodi, are overkill for music. If you were also streaming video then sure, but you can get a cheap 1 or 2 drive NAS and be streaming in a flash. A single drive would give you plenty of room for music, but I like using the NAS in redundancy mode so I have a shot at catching a disk failure. (I don't back anything up because if on the off chance both drives fail, I still have all my CDs.)

Thanks, Cork.

I would be interested in your opinion of the mobile apps. The ability to control music without having the main display turned on has become one of my requirements.

I played with my Roku 2XD. It also fails that test, but did provide some interesting learning. I found that Roku Media Player was completely incapable of dealing with a large library, whether presented by DLNA or Plex. I didn't feel like buying the Plex app because of the other shortcomings of this approach, but was able to get proof of concept through Rarplex. The other Roku problem is absence of analog output, so I would still be using some kind of external DAC.

What I've done as a short term solution is revitalize my Squeezebox. While Murph told me years ago about ipeng and other third party apps, I was so fixated on my network problems that I completely neglected the possibility that the native Squeezebox app might be the culprit. Sure enough, I switched to a free third party app called Squeezer, and seem to have mitigated the general flakiness that was driving me crazy. If Squeezer doesn't pan out, there appear to be other alternatives.

I think you are correct that Kodi and other full service streaming clients are overkill and unnecessarily complex for my needs given the ways in which we currently consume video.

Long term, I think that the work being done by Axiom, Volumio and Rune Audio is the way to go, especially on the Pi platform. Thanks to Fred for pushing that into our collective consciousness. But the hardware doesn't seem completely mature or settled. Some people are using very expensive external USB DACS, which seems nutty to me. There are a few I2S Pi audio boards, but they aren't exactly free, and you still seem to be hacking around quite a bit, with varying opinions.

I am smitten with the cubox-i, but a $160 box with uncertain analog capabilities is clearly not a fully baked solution even if it is an adorable 2 inch square pc.

I really appreciate everyone's interest and support. Except Mark.

Crap.

Tom. where is your music stored?

I have been using a Synology NAS for the past 3 years and simply just love it. they are more expensive but I think you get what you pay for.

They have a web based app called DSAudio that will stream to a DLNA device direct from the NAS. there is also an android and ios app that has a great user interface. Will stream as a WAV so it can feed out full uncompressed audio if your dlna device doesn't support flac, but it also can transcode to many other formats.

I started off with a 2 drive DS209 NAS and it still works great.. I use it for my Apple Timemachine. I have since upgraded to a 4 drive and now an 8 drive with 22TB of fully redundant drive capacity. Should hold me for a few years.

There are so many ways to skin the so called cat, all with the plus and minuses.

Yeah, Mark, "Thanks"

Matt, my music is on shared Windows folders on an old Vista machine that just runs all the time. I've successfully run Plex server and Tversity on it to get a DLNA feed. The Squeezebox uses Logitech Media Server referencing those same directories.

I don't understand what you mean by "stream to a DLNA device direct from the NAS". So, what kind of device are you using? AKA what is actually hooked up to the pre-amp/receiver that you are controlling with DSAudio? I'm sorry for the dumb question, but I just don't get it.

I've thought about buying a proper NAS device (and Synology does seem to be the cream of the crop), but my current solution is "free" or at least sunk cost. So, when this machine inevitably craters, I'll hopefully do something the right way, then.

Really appreciate the tip about DSAudio, and I'm going to go check it out.

I guess the easiest way is to show you a picture:



For the upstairs family room, i have a Pioneer SC1227. Downstairs in the rec room I have an apple TV box. Even my Panasonic Bluray player can be streamed to. Right now for my media room, my Marantz AV7005 is not hooked up, or that would be in the list too.

so for example, I could play to my apple TV downstairs a Cheep Trick song by simply selecting is from my web browser and click on the play. You can make up play lists, edit them, play multiple sources at once.



or for a different interface, here is the ipad version of the app

Matt is describing a "push"; that is, he's accessing his NAS and telling it to send a stream to a particular device.

I was explaining a "pull" (in my last post); which was telling my receiver to go get a stream from someplace (in my case a NAS).

I tried out the Yamaha app on a Google device and it worked fine - I used my cheapo tablet to control the Yamaha and select the NAS, then browse my music folders and select an artist/album. Basically it was just like using the receiver's remote, but without the TV. It wasn't fancy, no cover art or anything, but I had easy and readable access to the music.

You guys are great. I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me.

Matt, thank you for the pictures. It looks like the Synology solution really works well for you.