Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Boy, do I need some advice!

Well, I got my new M3's yesterday and finally hooked them up. I'm not happy, but I'm not sure why. In my very first post, I mentioned that I'm not an audiophile and I feel I'm at the bottom of a steep learning curve. So, I'm welcoming any advice that someone would offer. And I'll TRY to keep this short.

I should begin by telling about my old, cheap system, so please don't grimace as you read this. My receiver is a Sony STR-D-315. And the speakers I'm replacing are Yamaha NS-A636's. These are 3-way bookshelf speakers with an 8" woofer, so consequently they are louder and "crisper" than the M3ti's.

But, the problem I've always had with these Yamahas are that the sound seems to be mostly inside the big black box and not out in the room (poor construction). This is definitely not the problem with the Axiom's (and BTW, I think they look great).

I guess I thought, after reading reviews and opinions, that I could achieve a certain sound with the M3's. I do realize the differences and limitaions of a 2-way vs a 3-way speaker. And before I went for the Axioms, I also tried some Monitor Audio Bronze2's and some Athena's.

I was also trying to be cost concious. But I'm now wondering if I should perhaps bump up to the M22's to achieve the volume and range I seem to be missing in the M3's.

O.K. so I DIDN'T keep it short! But I sure would appreciate some input from the experts out there; or even somebody who's been in my shoes.

Sorry to hear that you're unhappy- I think the first recommendation would be to just keep listening and getting acustomed to the M3s. You've probably heard folks in the forum say that 'speaker break-in happens, but it happens in the mind rather than the speaker.'

Otherwise, though it's hard to talk about expectations, how are the M3s not what you're expecting in a speaker?

Sounds to me like you might be expecing the M3's to produce the same or better (bass response) sound at the same amplifier setting. May I suggest that you listen carefully to the clarity of the sound the M3's produce that your old speakers do not and then adjsut the amplicfier's volume upward. I think you'll then find clarity and bass response that will knock your soks off!

Hey, Raindance! Nice to see someonw else is up at this hour reading these posts.

To answer your question, firstly, the Axioms are not as loud as the old Yamahas. I did a side-by-side with both. As I mentioned, the Axioms have smaller woofers and no midrange, so this is not a surprise. But the Yamahas sound a bit clearer in some respects, and this again is probably due to the fact that they are two-way's.

Naturally, anything new and different takes some getting used to, but I'm not sure if what I'm looking for is not a larger speaker. And i'm wondering if the M22's would achieve a sound comparable to a 3-way system. Any thoughts on this?

Hey! Thanks for the advice; I appreciate it. And I did turn up the volume, as you said, and it did make some difference. But the Axioms seem to be missing a bit in the uppper range as well, at least to my ears. So I wouldn't be one of the people who conders them "brite".

I know my receiver has severe limitations, as well. Compared to some the equipment I've seen mentioned in these forums, mine is akin to an AM transistor set from the '60's!!

BTW, Raindance, I just checked your profile for the heck of it, and lo and behold: you HAVE a couple of M22's. I'd like to know what your impresions are. But I'm off to bed now, so I'll read more in the AM. Thanks again!

I don't think that 3 way vs. 2 way has much to do with it. I suspect that the Yamahas are more sensitive, which gives them greater volume at a given volume setting. Also, the M3s may not put out as much bass, as you said, because they're 6 inchers, as opposed to 8s. I imagine that the cabinet is smaller, too. Do you have any adjustments made to the tone controls "left over" from the Yamahas? I would suggest you put the tone controls to neutral (and turn them off entirely, if possible with your receiver). This could make a big difference. Now, I've only heard the M22s, but I was blown away by them. I'm considering the M3s or the M40s or 50s for various reasons, but I've not heard them yet. I'd also play with positioning a bit.

BTW, the M3s (& 40s and 50s) are considered (or used to be, at least) to be on the warmer side of Axiom's lineup; in other words, they're not accused of being bright as often as the 2s, 22s, 60s, and 80s.

PM, I'm not familiar with the Yamaha speakers, but I'm quite familiar with your Sony 315 and know that it has plenty of power to drive the M3s to uncomfortably loud levels. The fact that you have to set the volume control higher for the M3s indicates only that they have less sensitivity, which has no connection with quality, size, number of speakers, etc. I have the M22s because I prefer the slightly more forward and clearer mid-range they apparently have as compared to the M3s, but I don't know if that would match your preference. As far as the highs, the M3 and M22 have the same tweeter and are essentially identical there, with quite strong and smooth response. I can only guess that the Yamahas are unrealistically elevated or ragged in the highs if they sound much different. The Axiom highs are accurate. Keep listening to the M3s and don't hesitate to set the volume control higher than you've been used to.

Ah, my opinion on my M22s. let's see...

I had Wharfedale Modus 8s before these Axioms, and at first I thought they were a bit restrained on the low-end. I like a definite low-end in listening to music- something that sounds authorative. After getting a subwoofer (STF-2 from HSU), I realized that what my Wharfedales had was some sort of unnatural mid-bass bloat-- it sounded good to me because I was used to it.

I wouldn't have been happy with my M22s without a sub. With a sub to fill in the lower octaves, many cds (depending on how they've been mastered) feel extremely 'natural'- I'm happy with the sound.

Some bloat in some areas does sound good to some people-- I figured, accurate as my M22s+HSU were, I could just EQ them to sound a lot like my Wharfedales if I couldn't get used to them, but I did and things are good.

Hope this helps-
Mike

Pewterman,

if you don't mind I'd like to chime in here. This might get long.

1 - yamaha vs. m3 for volume levels. Axioms are extremely efficient speakers (little power gives louder volume). However, your Yamaha's might be even more efficient. Or, you may be confusing dB level with loud bass. You yammy's do have an 8inch woofer just for bass. But trust me, the M3's require little power to give good volume. Some people use 3 watt tube amps and it fills the room.

2 - You're extremely used to the yammy sound. I assume you had them for over a decade and listened to EVERYTHING on them? Try walking around to local audio stores and listen to very expensive and lesser expensive speakers on very well recorded material. Then try the same at home. AFter 2 or 3 weeks of listening to the M3's, you'll think your yammy's sound bad.

3 - M22 vs M3. The M22's are clearer in the midrange, are a bit more dynamic (that means they produce complicated music a bit better), play ever so slightly louder, and give a nicer soundstage than the M3's. The M3's are warmer, more laid back, give less listening fatigue, have a thicker sound for bass (the m22's are often perceived to sound thin).

4 - make sure your cables are connected properly. negative on negative, positive on positive, and please be sure that the connection is tight

5 - if your electronics are really THAT old, maybe an upgrade would help, maybe not. you could always try the m3's and someone else's house with newer stuff, just to see if it changes anything.

Hey folks! I really appreciate all the great advice and I'm taking it! This will require a lot of trial and error and patience on my part and it will take time to sort everything out. This is, after all, my first new change to the system in five years and I am very used to what I had.

Everyone is so used to "instant gratificaion" these days and I guess I am no different :(.

Of course, the one thing I haven't really focused on in my evaluation is the cheapest part of my system: my ears!! When I wouldn't pay attention to her, my mother used to advise me to "get the wax out of your ears"! Basically, I think I need to be more aware of what I'm listening to, when and where.

As to the M22's vs the M3's, I got some good advice from the tech people at Axiom. This included telling me that the M3's were a bit stronger in the area of bass. So, I guess I have to figure out what type of sound I'm looking for.

In the interim, guys, please keep those cards and letters coming! I'm climbing that learning curve!

Hi pewterman

What kind of music are you using to compare the M3s with the Yammies? May I also ask what you are using for a source?

I'm not familiar with the Sony you're using, but contrary to the opinion held by many here, I believe that choice of receivers/amps make a big difference. I used a pair of M3s with a 5 watt per channel tube amp and these M3s simply astonished me by how well they reproduce music. I still remember listening to Getz/Jobim on the M3s for the first time - no speakers I ever had in my house previously reproduced the sound of Stan's horn as well as these little M3s. Female vocals like Astrid or Loreena McKennett were so real sounding. I dumped a pair of $3000 Infinity Composition Overture 3s because they were inferior to the M3s. The M3s were not perfect in my system. They lacked a little something in the upper mids, but I think that's what separates a $250 speaker from a $2500 pair like the Reference 3a deCapo mm's. I found that the M3s were very easy to integrate with a subwoofer and all in all was stunned by their goodness.

I have also listened to music on these same speakers driven by a Yamaha HT receiver and did not find the combination quite as pleasant as the tube/m3 combination that I enjoyed so much.

BTW, the M3s are pretty efficient. I think they're rated at 89db in an anechoic environment and something like 93 db for in-room performance.

2x6 asked a good question that was going through my mind too - what type and how much variety of source material are you using for comparisons?

Are you using a sub at all?

Have you fiddled with speaker placement?

I'm very interested in your experience, so please keep the dialog going.

I never had M3s, but I had M22s with no sub for while. IMO a sub (if only a Hsu STF-1) is an absolute requirement for bookshelf speakers like these.

I'd either keep the M3s and get an STF-1, or exchange them for M22s and get an STF-1. Either way you need a sub. It will totally change the listening experience. You won't have to turn the volume up as loud, and the sound will be much fuller and substantial.

My source is a 5 year old (and very simple) Sony STR d-315 receiver. This is only a 2 channel system and the receiver has only a bass and treble control along with a "low boost" button for added bass. I'm not running a sub and probably have no plans to immediately, though I'm closed-minded.

So far I've played Russell Watson, Les Miserables, and, for old time's sake, some Dan Fogelberg (which has a fair amount of instrumental variety). I've also listened to a bit of NPR radio, though the signals here are not good. However, that said, all the radio stations come through only in mono, so a side-by-side check of speaker brands is easier in one respect.

I also went out today and purchased a pair of Athenea AS-2B's as a further form of comparison (I'm trying to do my homework). Now I am in more of a quandry. I agree that the Axioms sound very "refined" in their reproduction. But the Athenas seem to come through (at least to my ears) a bit stronger in the "highs". And this is what I felt I was missing in the Axioms. I did not change any control levels during my comparison, only switched speakers. The Athenas are louder than the Axioms, as well, although louder is not always smoother.

I have been moving the speakers around (I'm not terribly limited in placement) and fiddeling with the contols, as has been suggested. There are strong points to both the Axioms and the Athenas (looks are not one of them for the Athenas).

I also wanted to find something in the same price range as the Axioms. And I paid $275.58, with tax, for the Athenas. Of course, they are made in China, so price is not an indicator of much. Ahhh, our global economy. O.K., I have to say this: democracy (and capitalism)is slowly coming to China. In a few years they'll all be making $15 an hour and the Athenas will be produced in the States using cheaper labor:)!

Anyway, my research goes on. Thanks again for helping me along that learning curve!!

PM, your own words in your last post show how you at least partially invalidated the comparison you made. You stated that you changed no control levels and that the Athenas(as were the Yamahas previously)were "louder". That's the problem, or at least part of it. In comparing different components it's necessary to adjust volumes to be as equal as possible(not really possible over the full range of speakers)since louder tends to be perceived as better. In particular, the highs become more apparent the louder a speaker is played, due to the Fletcher-Munson effect. Keep experimenting.

What does a British techno band have to do with this?

Maybe they couldn't make enough money just writing about sound? Trying to follow the success of the Thiele Small Parameters?

Cute, real cute! As I said, I'm on a learning curve. So, when I read this term, I immediately did research into it. But the BT site is interesting. too! I love learning about new cultures!! Thanks for the link!

Well, I'm still doing comparisons. This morning, I auditioned some Paradigm Titans and Mini Monitors. I found the Titans to be only fair. The Mini Monitors were more impressive--while they were being played on a $1,000 receiver. When switched to a $300 receiver, the sound was appreciably poorer. I asked the salesman if all the controls were equal on both receivers and he asured me they were. Of course, nothing will sound in a showroom the way it will on my old Sony receiver. So many variables!

Now to the Athena AS-B2's I purchased(and still have). I thought they might be good competitors for the Axioms when I played a few CDs through them. But today, I played a DVD on my Panasonic Rv-32 and the Athenas were quite disappointing! And I did make a few adjustments to the controls.

I have another question regarding speaker "break in". I know that there are many opinions on the subject in these forums. The Axiom owners manual only gives a nod to this, but the Athena brochure clearly states a suggested 50-100 hours of break in. My question is this: does this have to be CONSECUTIVE hours or just accumulated. I'm not really in the habit of leaving my equipment on all day.

Thanks for any input!

Or, they don't have to be broken in at all! It's more likely that your ears need to be "broken in"; ie, you have to get used to the new sound. And now, I'm taking cover. We haven't had a good break-in fight around here for awhile!

Also, I wouldn't believe the salesguy for a second when he said that all the controls were the same. He was trying to get you to buy the $1000 receiver, after all...

I think it would be more accurate to say that nothing will sound the same in the showroom as in your room. Room acoustics are going to make far more of a difference than $700 worth of receiver, unless the $300 receiver was a total piece of crap.

As for your Athenas, are you sure that the DVD wasn't just poorly mastered? Compare some other sources. Have a look around the boards for various threads on well mastered source material.