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#399848 - 01/09/14 12:52 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6928
Loc: It's all about the location.
Having full range(or close to it) speakers, ie towers, helps to even the bass out, sub or no sub, imo.
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#399855 - 01/09/14 06:49 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
you know you wannnntt it!
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#399856 - 01/09/14 07:30 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 613
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, CA
well if you have two or four subs in the room set up properly how do you even notice the M80's bass.
Given that is that low frequencies are Omni directional.
and if your set up properly your speakers are supose to just ""Disappear" so if they disappear how do you even know.
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#399857 - 01/09/14 07:31 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 613
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, CA
I wish Axiom would make a high end version on the M22
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#399858 - 01/09/14 08:52 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: troyd
well if you have two or four subs in the room set up properly how do you even notice the M80's bass.
Given that is that low frequencies are Omni directional.
and if your set up properly your speakers are supose to just ""Disappear" so if they disappear how do you even know.



I'm not sure who this is directed at but I'll chime in..
I love that I can't tell my subs from the rest of my system while watching movies. I can't even tell them apart. I had to check that they were all on, one at a time the other night. It made me grin. Shame I'll have to re tweak here in the near future, damn shame...
That said when listening to music I find it to be too much. I know its the room as I've had the same equipment in my last home so next on the list will be room treatments, even before the PS4.
Regarding which is better, I'd have to say I don't know.
Does it matter? Nope.




Edited by brwsaw (01/09/14 08:54 PM)
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#399863 - 01/10/14 08:32 AM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
TroyD Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 613
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, CA
brwsaw, moreso to a few posts.

Thing is alot of people say about seemless sound stages and the ability for a great speaker to seem like is dissapears.

Now, I am the same way I really perfer my M80 for music/no subs, however, I like a little more bottom end than the 80's seem to kik out. Really thinking I may trade up to the M100's.
They are awesome in two channel, love them in that when I sit back in my chair, whether I am watch a movie in 2 ch or a hockey game or Big Bang the sound seems to come directly from my TV. if listening to a music video say Rumours or just a CD. Stevie Nicks or who ever, sounds like they standing in the middle of my room in front of me talking/singing. I sould put a drap across the front and I wouldn't even know there were two speakers.

Now, if they were still there in a acoustic sound room with treatments and what nots. and two three or four subs properly positioned. Am I going to really, like really tell the difference, that oh that bottom end at 55hz came from the M80's ?

I am not saying the M22's are better than the M80's with music or movies. However, if I had a bookshelf speaker that rival'd the M80 in the region of 80hz and up then I am pretty well sure I would take them as the front three over a tower.
But, Axiom does not make a top end bookshelf that compares to the M80's.
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#399866 - 01/10/14 09:53 AM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
alan Offline

connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3269
Loc: Toronto/New York/parry Sound
troyd:

The M22 is already a "high-end" bookshelf speaker -- at a bargain price. The different versions over the years -- v1, v2, v3-- represent small refinements in design and slightly greater linearity (smoothness in frequency response). In my rounds of listening tests at audio shows, I've come across bookshelf speakers I've liked, then been flabbergasted to learn the price. The most recent was a pair of stand-mounted bookshelf designs from a Scandinavian manufacturer that also builds drivers. At the time I auditioned them, I thought to myself, "hmmm, very nice, quite similar in neutrality to the M22 or the M3". I wandered over to the rep in the listening room and inquired about the retail price -- $5,000 per pair!!!

If you placed these speakers in a sighted comparison A/B test with the M22s, where listeners knew the brand and price of each, most listeners would pick the $5,000 pair because of the psychological bias. This has been demonstrated for decades in Dr. Floyd Toole's research at the NRC, and later at Harman in California. (I was part of the listening panel for many years of the NRC tests.) If you then make the test double-blind, listeners with normal hearing will agree on the best-sounding speaker, regardless of price and design.

Manufacturers of overpriced bookshelf models will rarely agree to submit their speakers to well-controlled double-blind tests, as they know full-well that their models may well be equaled or bested by excellent smaller bookshelf speakers from makers like Axiom and PSB, which sell for a fraction of the expensive models' price.

Regards,
Alan
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#399871 - 01/10/14 11:01 AM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
I think it really comes back to what do you want?
With respect to disappearing speakers, that's always been the goal (has been achieved), I want to be enveloped int he sound and image. I want to be there, flinching, ducking, tearing up, etc.
Regarding the sub 80hz region, If I had my mains crossed over at 80hz it still wouldn't matter to me.
As it is they sound amazing, when a stripper clip pings, a ruger or 303 British fires it sounds like I'm there.
I doubt very much I'd get the same SQ and the same sense of space/fullness from smaller speakers.
To tell you the truth I don't want to know. I am happy and would expect to be one notch better when I set up my new front sound stage.
All in I'm only out +/- $1200 per tower. You could spend alot more to achieve less.

Bring on the subs!!


Edited by brwsaw (01/10/14 11:02 AM)
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#399888 - 01/10/14 02:32 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
exlabdriver Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 09/07/11
Posts: 1767
In my HT in a medium sized room (2500 cu ft) I have M22v3s - each with its own 10" Velo sub. When I bought this modest setup a couple of years ago, the cost was about $550 per side which is a steal IMHO.

The M22s are not deficient in any way & IMO they really don't need any upgrading. I tried the AVR Xovers at 60 & 80 Hz & if I remember correctly, I settled on 60 Hz. In my HT, we play most movies at -10 Db & easily can play louder but there is no point.

The M22s when combined with decent sub(s) are fine just the way that they are...

TAM

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#399890 - 01/10/14 03:18 PM Re: nice articule on Bookshelf vs Floor standing [Re: TroyD]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 2015
Loc: Canada
Alan's recommendation was to go with M22's and had I gone with it I know I would have been happy.
I would have liked to do 3-M22's with 3-EP 400's up front but I ended up going with the M80.

Smiles all around here.
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