Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater One More Time

I have asked this before - a couple of years back - but this time, due to a larger than expected bonus, I have an actual budget. My receiver (a less expensive Yamaha RX-V663) is chronically plagued by a surround channel that does not play. Rarely, one of the mains will drop out as well. When I sit down to a good action movie, I find myself sticking my ear to the guilty surround to verify if it is working. Drives my wife crazy. Once the receiver warms up, the channel will begin working - but I shouldn't have to contend with that - Right? :nudge: RIGHT?? SO....what is the current thinking around here on a good AVR? I welcome all your informed / biased opinions.

I can't condone the hell you've been going through.

Seems like everybody has a favorite. I've had good luck with my Onkyo, and found the Audyssey MultiEQ XT was "helpful". I'm still scarred by previous bouts with Denon manuals, but most normal people seem to be able to work through them. If you're an iPad user, you might like to have AirPlay and/or WiFi. If you don't have a music streaming solution you like, you might be interested in comparing the various network music UI's.

I'll probably be tempted to look for a 9.2 capable model because it exists. I've had good luck with manufacturer refurbs.

I liked it better when - years ago, of course - I could buy new audio toys for $300 instead of $1,000.

Depends on the budget I suppose. I upgraded from my Denon 3808 to 4520. Love it. Loved 3808, but 4520 has better everything, pretty much.

We got your back What kinda dough we workin with here. Sherbourn is selling their recievers extremely cheap ,not sure if they are a option for you. I have a denon 3311 and a Yamaha RX-A1000 and I think they are both great. Not to hijack this thread but I will be selling my Denon since I have my eyes on a pre/Pro from Yamaha. For me I would go Yammy all the way.

Is this you, Socketman or your new prototype, Socketman1?

A few added points.... My current receiver has 4 HDMI inputs - not enough. Second, I am not opposed to Refurbs - John did a good job of convincing me last time on refurbs. In the meantime, one of my daughters bought a refurbed Nikon DSLR which has performed flawlessly. Third, I would like to keep it under $1000. Fourth, I am not married to any particular brand. Fifth, I will stick with an AVR as opposed to separates. Lastly, Thanks for watching my back.

Tom, I don't have an iPad yet but I do plug in my Ipod. Don't need 9.2 or 7.1 so no worries there, Not familiar with network UI's (willing to learn) and WIFI, I would take it if it was available. AND.....I am old enough to remember the $300 days.

RIGHT, Rob! I'd suggest a Denon or Onkyo model with the top MultEQ XT32. The best buy in my view at the moment is the Onkyo 818(XT32, 8 HDMI inputs among other features)from OneCall for $699 shipped. Accessories4less shows a factory refurb 818 for $599, but it's "Sold Out", and I wouldn't want to bet that it'll come back in stock.

Thanks, John. I'll take a look. What was the name of that refurb store we discussed a couple of years back? Was it Onecall? I can take the time to look back tonight if you don't recall right off.

So, John, Onecall is not a refurb? I am not familiar with that particular outfit but they seem to have all the right credentials. Have you (or anyone else) dealt with them before?

I have. They look pretty sketchy, but I've not had any problems with them. I've gotten a camera and a receiver.

I went out to A4L and looked - they have an Onkyo 828 available. The biggest difference I can see is that it has built in WIFI. I am going to play the ignorance card here. Why would I want WIFI? Other than Pandora etc? There is also a 929 for a considerable jump in price.

I think that we established last time that A4L is reputable and that refurbs may be even more desirable than brand new. Open to discussion about it, however.

Thanks, Ken. Anyone else?

I bought a receiver from OneCall. At the time, they were offering a discount if you said you were an AVS forum member. Got a very good price on my Denon and no problems.

They get a 9.3 out of 10 on resellerratings.com.

Thanks, Mark.

One other feature that the 929 has is Bluetooth. Any shout outs for Bluetooth?

Bluetooth control from a phone/pad or Bluetooth audio?

Control Yes... But most devices will be fine with wifi.

Audio...maybe, the newest tech is a bit better. I'm still not a fan though.

I use it in my car , but It sounds like pooh for use in the home. There is a new blue tooth codec that suppose to be better but I haven't seen it implemented yet. A2DP is cucca . Stick with airplay or use skifta over your wired or wireless network.

Make sure the 828 has Audyssey MultiEQ XT32 and not a lesser variant.

I have done a bit of digging. Apparently, the 828 is not the step up from the 818 for exactly that reason, Tom. The 929 is the upgrade from the 818 as it does have the better Audyssey. So, Bluetooth is the main advantage - so you guys are saying that hooking your Iphones up via Bluetooth does not sound good? To Murph's point, apparently I could control the receiver with an Ipad (if I had one). I am not sure that is worth the additional $200

You use words unfamiliar to me....

The 818 still provides for control from a mobile device through the network connection.



From http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-NR818&class=Receiver

Personally, the bluetooth doesn't do much for ME.

With regards to the apps , I find them quite usefull at times. Kids get the movie too loud I can turn it down from my bedroom. Handy for switching inputs on the receiver, and controlling the volume from the computer is handy when someone comes into my room to talk. Aptx is the newest BT codec and it boasts cd quality playback, a2dp is highly compressed and the results on a good system are far from stellar. I know Audyssey is all the rage but it can only accomplish so much and I would not base my decision solely on RC software. I wouldn't buy an Onkyo if it was the last receiver on the planet.

You know, I've never heard a better receiver than one of the more pricier Pioneers.

Strawberry is the best flavor.

they all sound good with beer

How do you reeeally feel about it? Would you care to elaborate as to why?

When I first started looking to upgrade from my Sony STR-DG820 I almost bought an Onkyo, it seemed to be the go to brand. But the more I researched the more problems they seemed to have than any of the other brands. They always seem to have the most features for the least money , so compromises have to be made and they just don't seem to have the reliability and they tend to run hot and heat kills . Denon had its own troubles with the 3310 and network issues but the 3311 was better so i took a chance and I did have some issue's with the network features. The Yamaha seems to have a better overall build quality and I personally found no significant difference using YPAO or Audyssey Multieq XT
room treatment first then room correction if necessary. If you feel you need Audyssey I am not going to try to change your mind, pretty much all RC software has had improvements since its inception. I like to concentrate on speaker positioning and use of furniture etc to get the room sounding decent,i find little difference with audyssey on or off. This is after all just my personal opinion, and to be honest I haven't owned a ONkyo and I see no reason I ever will with all the great choices out there.

Richard

Rob, yes; the 828 can be viewed as a "downgrade" in comparison to the 818. This is particularly in light of the Audyssey version being lowered two steps. It can also be noticed that the 818 weighs about 40 pounds and 828 33 pounds.

In the past we discussed both Accessories4less and ShopOnkyo as sources for factory refurbs. Neither of them have the 818 refurb available now. I haven't personally dealt with OneCall, but contrary to an earlier comment here, research shows it to be one of the most highly regarded audio equipment dealers, so I didn't hesitate to recommend it at that 818 sale price.

I didn't pick the 818 at random, as it appears from my research to stick out very clearly as the unit to buy in that price range. My personal experience with Onkyo receivers(and that of most users, see e.g., the four 818 reviews in OneCall)has been highly satisfactory. I see no good reason to even mention a second choice.

Since I purchased my Axioms, I eventually reverted to what the vast majority of Axiom consumers do. Specifically, I sit back and enjoy an excellent sound from quality speakers. I do lurk on the forum from time to time - but I am not as active a poster as I once was. When I have questions, however, I come here as my "go to" source for trusted, non judgemental advice.

To bring closure to the topic, I studied multiple reviews - both professional and non. I perused forum topics at AVS. I PM'd several members of this forum that I have come to respect over the years. At one of their suggestions, I downloaded product manuals and answered for myself several open questions. In the end, I had 3 front runners - Onkyo 818 & 929 and the Denon x4000. All met the under $1000 criteria if purchased at A4L with the 818 available in that price range new. I eventually tossed the 929 as I don't think I would ever sell a 9 speaker plus sub set up to my wife. That left the 818 and the X4000.

Several reviews state that these 2 models were designed to go "toe to toe" with each other and it was a tough decision. In the end, I chose the X4000 with the swing factor being Airplay support. Ordered from A4L last night. So.....if I don't get too caught up in (to paraphrase JohnK) just enjoying the music and not the equipment, I will dig this thread back up in a couple of months and post my critique of the X4000 and the experience of shopping with A4L. Thanks to all for the comments and suggestions.

Great choice, and great post, Rob. I look forward to learning from your experience.

Having a snow day here. I could get to work but.....ANY way, normally this would be great except that my receiver was supposed to be delivered today. That would have exceeded my expectations but there is the snow day. The Fed Ex tracking site starts with this disclaimer about delays:

Severe winter weather is causing delays and disruptions across the U.S. Learn More

My package left Orlando yesterday morning at 5:25 am and is apparently MIA. Too bad as a snow day like today would have been the perfect chance to do a leisurely set up.

Congrats and Bummer at the same time.

Thanks. Still MIA

STILL,MIA! NO update since it left Orlando

I'm just talkin to myself.

I hate that feeling.

The MIA part - or the Talkin to Myself part?

YES

Think of it as foreplay

Well, I am in logistics - to some extent. I know that a Fed Ex shipment from Orlando to Greensboro, NC likely went by truck. Now I am starting to wonder if the truck got lost or is in a ditch. We got over 8" of snow and my dirt road and drive will be impassable for their vans for several days. I have met them before at a nearby convenience store when we had snow like this. Of course, the package needs to surface before any plans can be laid.....

There is a new bluetooth codec that assume to be better but I haven't seen it applied yet. A2DP is cucca. Keep with airplay or use skifta over your wired or wi-fi system.

OK.....I am fully set up an running with the new receiver. I read all 194 pages over on the AVS forum. Lots of useful advice - just about everything you need to know is on the first page as the thread originator and an AVS salesman have done an excellent job of gathering the pertinent info, tips, troubleshoot guide in the first several posts. There is a link to an excellent Audyssey set up guide that was also very helpul.

I was skeptical, but I have to give a thumbs up to the Audyssey calibration. The M60-500 has come to life in a way that I had not anticipated. A shout out for the M60's - the system set them to large / full range which I think is a commendation of their design and confirmation that they can reach the lower levels. I did change the setting to Small and put a crossover at 80. I have run Audyssey twice and both times yielded Large on the 60's and both times set the QS8's at small with a cross at 150. I also bumped the 500 up as a personal preference. The GUI on the Denon makes it easy to change the Sub (and Center) volumes when switching from music to movies. So.....I am now in JohnK mode - enjoying the music instead of the equipment!

I will say I've run Audyssey many many times, the Qs8's set to 150 does not sound correct, I think 90Hz is where all 4 of mine came in at, but never even close to 150Hz. I agree on the rest of your observations. You did run in multiple locations around your listening arrangement? For me I use all 8 sweeps.

Some interesting stuff about audyssey here with links to Audioholics. I have run my audyssey with this arrangement and am much happier with it .

I did use all 8 locations. The Audyssey guidelines say that you can raise a crossover value but lowering one is not a good idea.

Rob, I'd tend to agree with Randy that the 150Hz QS8 crossover is curious if you have them installed in a typical location for bass reinforcement from the room(i.e, directly against the wall and about 5-6' up). I'd try further measurements with respect to them. Edit: are you certain that all the mid-woofers in the QS8s are actually operating?

The Audyssey measurement technique which Richard references has merit. The main factor is to have the microphone positions in a tight cluster around the central listening position, possibly as little as 3" apart.

I could tighten it in a bit around the main location. I have the 8's on the Axiom stands - so I would say that they are maybe 4 feet off the ground. The stands are a bit out from the wall - so I can try pushing them back as far as they will go. I am in a bonus room, so there is a knee wall up to about 4 feet and then a 45 degree slope up to the ceiling at 8 feet. Maybe that is making a difference? The Audyssey is the XT32 version? Thoughts?

Yes, since the QS8s aren't wall mounted, that may explain why they appear to be getting less bass reinforcement from the room. Placing them as close to the wall as possible should help. Whatever the end result is though, stay with it.

I will push them back to night. I looked at them when I was answering last night to see how far out from the wall they were. They are tall enough on the stands that I won't be able to move them flush due to the 45 degree slope. Close but not quite.

I tried doing the sub crawl with a modification to Alan's video. The primary seating location is on a sectional - it is way too complicated to move the seat. So, I put a big pillow on the seat and plopped the 500 on to the pillow. I put in Transformers, cranked up the volume and crawled. I didn't really get much bass at all and wondered why not? Is it because the 500 was surrounded by soft surfaces - the pillow and couch? Is it because it was sitting up about 20 inches higher than on the floor? I ended up just putting it back up front facing the seating.

OK....I have been reading on Audyssey a bit. The modified sub crawl that I mentioned above - any thoughts on that? Placing the sub up on the couch - does that negate the sub crawl? Is there an established protocol in a situation like I describe?

Well, it certainly could screw you up, because you're putting the sub "in a corner" by setting it on the couch. You're artificially directing its output, so the exercise probably doesn't accurately approximate the room nodes. I don't think all the damping could "help", either.

If you could set something sturdy between the couch and the sub, that might help. Even if the sub is "too high", you'd still be measuring the bass at your head at that position (or something). You might also try orienting the sub in different directions.

Move the couch. It will muffle and absorb the bass frequencies. I don't even bother since you will get a different amount of reinforcement or bass frequencies depending on its location.

Easier said than done. It is a large sectional. All the pieces are hooked together. I would be dismantling the entire seating section and pushing pieces to the side. That is why I was trying the balancing act in the first place. Unfortunately, it didn't work very well.

Having said that, if I was to pile the furniture to the sides, or slide the pieces to either side of the sub location, would that fact affect the bass waves? I have forgotten more about sines and cosines than I learned in the first place.

You might try putting the sub on the floor just in front of or just behind your main seating position. For bonus points try the sub crawl both ways!

Having pieces of the sectional up against the walls likely would skew your results so it probably isn't worth the trouble.

Yes. This. Great idea.

I will try in front - although the last vestiges of my memory concerning sine waves is that that could put me in a peak or valley compared to being back another foot to 18 inches. Behind does not work as the sectional backs up to the knee wall.

It occurs to me that I have never posted pics of my setup. Partly because it is not a dedicated "Theater" but mostly because I can be lazy at times. I do know that the knee wall with 45 degree slope to the ceiling does seem to be good aoustically.

Further, I need a different TV stand as the location for the center is not quite tall enought. The top part of the speaker is obscured by a metal support for the TV shelf. Last night, I put on some Bonnie Raitt and was flipping back and forth from Direct Mode to PLII mode. I had set the sub back to the Audyssey setting (I bump it from 3 to 6 db for movies) and was listening to the bass. I could not help but marvel at the M60's when playing alone. I called my wife up and had her sit in the sweet spot. She preferred the direct mode with just the 60's. Her comment was the the PLII mode sounded like a "stereo". I too had noticed that the 60's had a nice full, rich sound compared to the VP150. I don't know if that is the driver difference or the cabinet effect of the stand? More likely a combination of the 2 factors.

Put them where you want ,if you have 2 put them on opposite sides of the room .Dual subs will cancel most nulls, try them in phase and out of phase. I let Audyssey calibrate them as a pair. If you are still not happy I suggest a DSpeaker Antimode 8033. It is highly unlikely you will beable to place them where they sound best anyway. Try not to overthink this since you haven't got a room specifically designed for HT.

Definitely not overthinking. I have had it set up for a long time - just replaying with everything now that I have a new receiver. Right now, I just have the one sub and it is going along the front wall - and it sounds pretty good where it is. I did think that the crawl might allow me to reposition it along the front wall. Just something to kill a little time with and....elicit some opinions here.

Now.....if you could convince my wife of the need for 2 subs......

I cant help ya there, I wont even try to figure out how to make that happen. I do whatever I want,so I got nothing for ya.

I guess I should of read the thread more thoroughly , I didn't realize what you were up to or I just plain forgot. I should warn you I have CRS so sometimes I make no sense. For the record, most of us average people don't have a whole lot of choice where to put their subs or have room for 2 for that matter. My own experience is that it seems a lot of people over think this and get way to carried away, that or I am lucky cause mine sound great to me. Also my experience has been that 2 subs are better than one, I suspect that is because of nulls and such. Its not about more output,it just sounds more balanced to me. I have considered getting a Antimode but I just don't feel I have any problems, perhaps I am easier to please.