It was a nice review. I watched for it and was happy to see them post as they did. I bet they had v3 tweeters...I found my v3 tweeters didn't like -7.5 either. At -10 everythings great. Good thing -7.5 isn't normal listening for me. And...v4 tweeters got installed tonight. Too bad I won't hear them until Monday night. Port plugs...might have been the next best thing for the review. All in all great honest comments.
I downloaded HTS's pic & zoomed in on the M100 tweeters. Although the pic is quite dark, they look like V4s to me.
I find that with my M22s + 2 X Velo Subs when playing music in my HT system, anything over -15 Db gets too loud for me - unless I'm into the sauce, ha! I recently watched Eric Clapton with Steve Winwood DVD 'Live at Carnegie Hall' in surround & found that -20 Db was most comfortable but still dynamic & enjoyable...
regarding what is said in the Hometheatershack review of the M100, reading the listening impressions written by Myers reminded me often of my own experience with my M80s.
i've had them now for quite a while, and i still come out WOWED after a listening session.
For HT -20 is my go to volume. Any louder and I tend to enjoy it less. 2 channel seems to always be around -30 (when its just me listening). You're right v4 tweeters. Ah well can't be right all the time.
My next guess was that they ran out of power but their amp is a perfect match for the M100. Not sure what to think..maybe it was in the source material?
I love U571. I've lost myself in this movie more than any other. I fond it on Blu ray last Christmas and still have to watch it. The DVD copy I have sounds great, I'm hoping the Blu ray version is at least as good. The PJ and screen isn't nice to non HD content.
For movies, I normally start at -10 Db & adjust from there. Mostly it remains at -10 Db though.
Just for laughs, I once tried U-571 at 0 Db & it was brutal & scary - it scattered the cats to the other end of the house...
TAM
if you have Master and Commander on DVD, try the storm sequence on the high seas at Ref. Level +1.0 dB; which is the normal level for this DVD. and then tell me what you think. ;-)
P.S.: it is supposed to be frightening and scary...
Very impressive review of the M100, though it seems more suited for much larger rooms than I currently occupy. As for the port plugs , I would have thought that would be a no brainer for 3 audiophiles.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards. What others think of me is none of my business. M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
Ya, but from what I understand by their posts there, they didn't find them in the box when they opened them. Honest mistake - I've overlooked pieces in boxes as well in my haste to get at it.
I believe that those who like their bass response might really be attracted to this beast...
This excellent exercise (thankfully not a juvenile shootout format) validates in spades my view that virtually all competently designed & built speakers today are 'similarly good'. Some of the rabid enthusiasts out there detest that notion & phrase but that is exactly what I found when I auditioned a bunch of brands & models before I finally settled on my Axioms.
It's nice to see that common sense can still prevail in some places such as HTS...
I completely agree with you tam. I think for a given price range I could myself adjust to pretty much any speaker given time. The human brain is amazing at adapting and filling in the blanks.
DOG is GOD spelled backwards. What others think of me is none of my business. M80 V3 MY GLOSS Cherry
Other than the bass response issue which was noted later that the inclusion of port plugs would have made a difference on, the only negative thing that was mentioned was some sibilance at high volume. This is something that seems to be consistent from some people's hearing opinions though regarding Axiom as a whole it seems.
M60|VP150|2xQS8|PSA XS30+Epik Empire|Pioneer Kuro 6010FD|PS3|Denon AVR-X4000|Parasound 5250v.2|
Other than the bass response issue which was noted later that the inclusion of port plugs would have made a difference on, the only negative thing that was mentioned was some sibilance at high volume. This is something that seems to be consistent from some people's hearing opinions though regarding Axiom as a whole it seems.
I believe the sibilance issue has more to do with the dual tweeters that "some experts" think is not the way to go in speaker design. I have had M80s for awhile now along with many other speakers over the years and I, personally, have never noticed any issue with this. I do have a dead sounding room so I would think it has more to do with acoustics than anything else and as we all know, many of these characteristics get exaggerated because of something someone reads on a website, yet, they personally have never owned or listened to the speakers. The Axiom designs have been around for a long time so in some people's minds perception can become the reality.
It would seem placement and the possible use of the port plugs would tame the bass when placed near a wall so there are options here. It is interesting to note the comments regarding the soundstage. Unlike the bass issue, this is something you can't really alter too much and it looks like the consensus of opinion was that M100s were pretty much superior to everything else that was reviewed.
The only time I hear a bit of sibilance in my 3 Axiom systems is if it is present in the source material. Some recordings are just not as good as they should be - poor micing or EQ in the studio?
What is much worse to me is guitar 'string noise' that some guitarists produce in spades that is faithfully reproduced in good recordings. Very annoying...
I too found Sibilance due to the following: - Source material - Poor electronics (amp, preamp and or digital source. Never got sibilance from vinyl unless it was on the recording. - Crossover.
Crossover? Yes. Midfi speakers (not axiom) use electrolytic caps in the crossover, occasionally bypass by a small value mylar cap. Electrolytics simply don't belong in the path of the mid or tweeter. As a woofer choke, OK. These 39 cent caps are 10-20% value, and smear the signal (time). Sibilance is one of the deleterious effects.
Simple proof: I just refurbish four Bose 301 speakers. Bose are the king of thump and sizzle. Most blame the sibilance on the cheap drivers....but that's not the whole story.
When I rebuilt the 301's, I replaced the crossover caps with 5% metallized polypropelene. The result was a much cleaner treble and 90% of the sibilance and grain was ameliorated.
I had some ATC SCM 12 which are ruthlessly revealing. I was getting some sibilance and grain, until I upgraded my then cheap technics cd player to an Arcam Alpha 9. Sibilance was GONE.
A final source of noise might be power. If you live near an industrial park or military base, there is a ton of hash in the power, and even a modest power filter helps.
"In My Head" from No Doubt's Rock Steady album is referred to as "The Sibilance Song" around here, although I guess strictly speaking there are more fff sounds than sss sounds.
When I read the HTS review my first thought from looking at distance & toe-in details for the M100's (before reading the actual review) was "they're too close to the front wall and toed in too much" - I find that even M60s sound bright & bass heavy like that. In fairness, folks who own the other speakers are probably making similar comments about how *their* speaker would have sounded better if only blah blah blah.
The big revelation for me was that (a) if you treat *all* the first reflection points properly you don't have to toe in so much to get really good imaging and (b) the "BBC dip" that some speakers have (but not Axioms) also seems to reduce the fatiguing impact of untreated reflection points.
Speaking of port plugs... any idea how they impact the frequency response, ie whether they just reduce port output or whether they shift the enclosure tuning as well ?
Reason I'm asking is that when I look at the FR charts for speakers with the HP woofers they seem just a bit peaked-up in the 50-100 hz range which usually ends up bothering me, however...
(a) I remember there being some discussion about the anechoic chamber readings needing adjustment below a certain freq (80 Hz ?) due to finite size so maybe there is some room reinforcement already present, and
(b) if the port plugs have the same effect as they do on SVS subs (they seem to lower the port tuning, so bass drops off a bit sooner but extends lower) a bit of port plugging would probably make the FR ideal for me. The legend on this chart has 4 entries and only 3 lines (with no colours), but I'm pretty sure green is all 3 ports open and purple is one port plugged.
Obviously I'm hoping someone got bored one rainy day in Dwight and ran a set of tests on an M*HP with and without port plugs.
This may not be relevant, but when I plugged the rear port on my M3s that are on stands in corners that were excessively reinforcing the bass response, the sound cleaned up dramatically.
I was able to completely remove the EQ from the bottom end & run them flat from my receiver. So, at least in my case, port plugging worked exceedingly well & I don't perceive that I lost anything except all of the muddiness...
John, yes using port plugs does have an effect on the enclosure tuning besides reducing the port output. The charts you included show the response expected from a vented enclosure in the top curve(i.e., a sharp drop off at 24dB/octave below the 3dB down F3 point). The bottom curve, presumably with the plugs installed, shows the higher F3 frequency, but with a slower 12dB/octave drop off below that which is typical of a sealed enclosure.
This doesn't indicate that an optimally tuned vented enclosure can be converted into an optimally tuned sealed enclosure simply by using port plugs, but situations involving excessive room resonances in the mid-bass frequencies can be partially corrected with the use of the plugs.
Speaking of port plugs... any idea how they impact the frequency response, ie whether they just reduce port output or whether they shift the enclosure tuning as well ?
Reason I'm asking is that when I look at the FR charts for speakers with the HP woofers they seem just a bit peaked-up in the 50-100 hz range which usually ends up bothering me, however...
(a) I remember there being some discussion about the anechoic chamber readings needing adjustment below a certain freq (80 Hz ?) due to finite size so maybe there is some room reinforcement already present, and
(b) if the port plugs have the same effect as they do on SVS subs (they seem to lower the port tuning, so bass drops off a bit sooner but extends lower) a bit of port plugging would probably make the FR ideal for me. The legend on this chart has 4 entries and only 3 lines (with no colours), but I'm pretty sure green is all 3 ports open and purple is one port plugged.
Obviously I'm hoping someone got bored one rainy day in Dwight and ran a set of tests on an M*HP with and without port plugs.
More specifically look at the SVS PB13 Ultra. If you click on the different modes (15 Hz, 20 Hz and sealed) you can see how many things change. For example, the long term output compression, waterfall plots and distortion measurements vary quite a bit from one mode to another. The same ideas will be true if you have the SVS PB12+. Just it will have a bit less extension and a bit less maximum output before compression sets in and distortion begins to rise, in comparison to its bigger brother.
