Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP-180 opinion needed (HP upgrade)

Hi all,

I currently have a standard VP-180 and am looking at upgrading to the HP version. I have the M100's as the mains driven by Sherwoods a-965. I am looking for an opinion for users who have the HP model. I listen to music only on this system, and usually at higher than what would be considered normal listening levels(I have very understanding neighbors :)) With the current setup, I have to set the centre channel to "small" to prevent over extension of the woofers. I used to have M80's for mains, and the 100's are way better simply because the drivers can move more. There is also an EP800 in the mix. The room is about 10' x 12' big.

Cheers, Brendan

I'm going out on a limb here and following in the footsteps of JohnK by saying, you are seriously going to damage your hearing. Just how loud do you need to have playback in a room that small??
I pushed my M60s at one point years ago and hit 106dB at about 8-10 foot distance. The M80s can go louder, let alone with the M100s can do, and my room is quite a bit larger.

Honestly, i don't think you need to be concerned about the woofers bottoming out, not unless you are using a truly heavy weight amp for each channel. That Sherwood is good, but certainly should not be able to push those speakers into maximum excursion. I highly doubt it. If anything, pushing it that high is likely driving it into clipping.
Rated:
All-Channels-Driven Power 20 Hz-20kHz 100 Watts per channel (x 7) into 8 ohms 160 Watts per channel (x 7) into 4 ohms
These specs aren't much different than some high end AVRs.

If you aren't sure of the difference between max. excursion and clipping, hook up the Sherwood to just 2 smaller bookshelf speakers and then crank it up. You will know the noise of max excursion as the woofer hits with a solid thump/thunk sound and you will see how the driver pushes out and abruptly stops.
I've only seen this once before, using an Anthem amp (http://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=mca-30/page=specs) pushing two Tannoy Saturn S6s.
http://www.hifidatabase.com/Detailed/Tannoy_Saturn_S6_4871.php

Is that a typo on the room size? Ignore the rest if so.

An ep800 + M100s in that room? Way way overdriving the room.

You want more power because your hearing is shot. That sucks dude. But rock on!

What crossover frequency are you using, ie where do you cut off "small" speakers ? My first thought is that any overdriving you're getting is because of the very lowest notes, and you could probably push the crossover frequency down as low as 40 Hz without having a problem with the current speaker.

I'm also thinking "moar power" before "moar speaker" and also have to agree with the question/comment about room size. Having that system cranked up in a 10x12 room seems fine, but I would probably need to be listening in a *different* room for full enjoyment.

EDIT -- I guess that's not quite right, there are a few songs & movies where I would want to be in the same room after all...

Hmm, like the others who have commented so far, I really wonder how loud you are playing your music to attain, as you describe it, over extension of the woofers? The regular M80/VP180 combination(without the HP woofers) are already capable of 400 watts input and have been tested up to 700 watts. My VP180 is set to a 60HZ crossover. I would concur and it also sounds to me that you are driving the amps in your AVR to clipping and beyond creating the issues you describe in which case, in my opinion, the HP woofers would really be of little value.

I have TWO Outlaw 200 watt/ch. multi-channel amps in a 9.2 speaker configuration anchored by regular VP180/M80s "V3" combination and can play both music and movies plenty loud without even coming close to over driving the speakers. It sounds to me if you like playing your music really loud, you would be better off spending your money on a more powerful outboard amp rather than upgrading to HP woofers.

casey01, you can play both music & movies plenty loud without coming close to overdriving the speakers, but you mentioned a 60 Hz crossover and so presumably you are running the center channel as "small".

Do you think that would still be the case if you set the center channel to "large" as Brendan wants to do ? If not, then at first glance his idea of upgrading to an HP version of the VP180 seems to make sense, although I think everyone here has an uneasy feeling that amplifier power is going to be a factor real soon if it is not already.

A separate question is whether upgrading the center channel in order to be able to run it "large" is worth it. Here I have mixed feelings -- I'm a huge fan (no fat jokes please) of running music speakers full range rather than depending on a sub, but on the other hand I'm not totally sold on multichannel music systems yet and tend to prefer 2.0 playback rather than using a DSP to synthesize additional channels from a 2.0 source.

That said, I admit to being woefully out of touch w.r.t. availability of good multichannel music recordings. IIRC I have two SACDs -- one Joni Mitchell which I can't find (and don't remember enjoying as much as a stereo recording when I played it) and one PF DSOTM which has 2.0 tracks and lives in the CD carousel.

Thanks for all the comments guys. I should elaborate on the room size. That was not a typo, the room is actually that size, however it is common with another room that is a little bit bigger via a set of pocket doors in the wall. The cross over frequency is currently set at 100hz. I found this to be the best compromise between mains and sub. I am about 17' away when listening. As for the comment about clipping; no, this is unfortunately not the case. I used to have M80 v2's as the mains, and I found a vast improvement in sound at high listening levels since I upgraded to the 100's. The 80's were awesome speakers, but how I used them pushed them to their max (as far as an "overdriving" of the physical woofer" goes). As far as an amp upgrade, that may be in my near future. I have not found, however, that I am pushing this current amp to levels of clipping. I have added some forced are cooling to it.I am only using 3 of the 7 drivers in the amp right now, and have never shown it drawing more than 1100 watts (obviously fluctuates as the music does). Please keep the comments coming my way. And for the record, I am a little hard of hearing, or maybe its just really selective

Oh, I should also note I did experiment with 2 of my buddies Carver Cubes. Wired one speaker bi-amped (800w theoretical max) and the same result as far as hearing the woofers over extend (excursion) was still heard.

I have had both the vp180 v3 and now the vp180hp v4 and put them in an a/b test (I upgraded because I needed inversed version to put under the big screen) for as if there was a huge difference, No it was only a slight difference almost nothing only in very high insane volumes levels could you tell there was something but it was very subtile almost no difference if you are upgrading just to have the Hp vs standard version, not worth it.

hope this helps

Phew. I thought you were using it as a typical 2ch equilateral setup. So you use it to play over your main floor kinda thing? Makes more sense now.

If you really need the pudding proof you could order a 180hp and try it a/b test like me and keep the one you need, Axiom is king when it comes to upgrading (need to keep in mind that the tweeters are the new versions also so depending when you purchased your m100's you could have the new or older tweeter versions, but then again if need be Axiom could probably put the older style tweeter in the 180Hp

Yes sir, the whole main floor of the house. I got the M100's in December, so they do have the newer style tweeters. Again, when I have the centre set as a small speaker via the P-965 pre amp, it performs very well. It only struggles when it is set as a large speaker, at high listening volumes as far as excursion is concerned. I do apologize to everyone for my original post; I should have included more details. I may have had a few beers in my when I wrote it

No worries -- high sound pressure levels and "a few beers" go together extremely well

Actually, I did at one time have all three fronts set to Large(my M80s still are set that way). Frankly, as we all do, in my ongoing experimentation, the only reason I changed the crossover setting on the VP180 to 60HZ was to funnel off some of the deeper bass to my two front subs(I have FOUR in total). It seemed to give a little better balanced sound up front for movies, otherwise, I found no difference in overall performance. As we all know, these crossover settings are a gradual roll off below the setting, not fixed, so at 60HZ and given the VP180 is spec'd down to 35-40HZ, there really isn't any noticeable audible difference. Incidentally I have a few SACD and DVD Audio discs and one SEAL DVD audio album in particular,I have has an extremely strong bass presence that I have played plenty loud without any speaker strain whatsoever.

In Brendan's case, I still find it unusual that the woofers do bottom out which would indicate to me anyway, that the music is being played at abnormally loud levels perhaps with some sort of bass boost involved here or going back to my original idea of an under powered amp. I also find the 100HZ crossover setting unusually high for speakers of this size and capability. Bass in most music normally doesn't go down much below 50-60hz anyway and certainly not to the deeper levels of some action movies, hence, my curiosity as to the overall set-up and why things are happening the way they are.

Hello again

I am currently not utilizing any bass boost option (not even sure if the Sherwood P-965 has that option). The 100hz cross-over is higher than normal, that I do agree. However, in my setup, I found that this higher setting sounded the best to me, transferring the lower end to the ep800 sub. The comment about abnormally high listening levels; yes, this is definitely the case during some, but not all of my listening.

Cheers, Brendan

Hello there;

In the end, your ears are the best of what is for you and this is good. The reason I was questioning your crossover setting is whether it is movies or music, with the subwoofer and speakers that you have to handle lower bass, the question is at that high a setting can you localize the deep bass to your subwoofer? If so, you have the setting too high. The lowest sounds should be spread throughout the room making it sound like it is coming from all speakers, not just only the sub. 80HZ is usually the optimum level, however, use what sounds best to you.

Hi casey,

I don't think the setting is too high. I am using a 12v trigger to turn the sub on, and it does not work sometimes. When it does not work, It may take a few songs for me to notice, or I may not notice at all depending what I am listening to. I do not notice any "localizing" towards the sub during any of my listening. Everything sounds very "spread out" as you mentioned. Tnanks again for all of your help, I very much appreciate it.

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to run something by some smart people: ie. not me. My curiosity has me thinking about clipping. I do not have access to an oscilloscope tonight, but can borrow one from work. I do have a Fluke 189 however. Just for shits, I hooked it up to one of my mains which were playing at my "above normal" listening levels. I did get a reading of 2.4 volts dc during playback (this is using the min/max function on the meter, measuring worst case). Is this reading acceptable? If I monitor the meter, average reading is well below 1 vdc during playback. Opinions please!

Measuring DC probably won't tell you much, but IIRC a Fluke 189 has a fast peak read mode, in which case you might be able to look for peak levels approaching the voltage rails in the amplifier. Hold on...

Edit: OK, here we go...

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/comunida...d_Functions.htm

I kinda have a bad feeling about this. There was a line in Tom Clancy's "Without Remorse" where Clark is going through some rehabilitation exercise and the doc is advising that he's pushing too hard and his pulse is <some high number>.

Clark: What's the record ?

Doc: Zero

Can we get a second opinion on this ? There's a reasonable chance it would work but I'm not really sure it's a good idea even so. I just don't see anything good happening from wiring a fast peak DVM up to the amplifier outputs and suggesting you see how high it goes.

There's a "hey y'all, watch this" aspect that worries me...

Cool, meters.

Voltage at the speaker terminals is AC. Using a DC reading in a sine wave results in the average value of zero. Deviations form zero represent bias in program waveforms or dc offset at the terminals.

To do a meaningful test you need a frequency generator and an oscilloscope as you are thinking.

Just in case it makes a difference, the fast peak read mode on the Fluke is for AC, not DC. Just wasn't sure if you were talking about Brendan's measurement (which was DC) or my suggestion (which was AC).

Nope Brendans. Its a cool idea to try a fluke. Just not sure the sampling rate would represent peaks in the frequency range of music. A scope would be better. Admittedly, I've never messed around with a fluke on anything but 60hz domestic voltages. Instumentation guys mess with the higher end meters more than we would.

Agreed, scope would definitely be better. The Fluke 189 manual claims it can capture transients as short as 250 uS, so I figured it should at least handle lower frequency signals OK.

Of course it says "with degraded accuracy", so not sure if that means +/- 10% or +1000/-99%...

In one of my first jobs out of school I had been working mostly on digital circuitry but got tasked to "go figure out how to fix the noise in that satellite receiver design". Tried to measure the 4 GHz signal coming down from the dish with a scope and a cheap probe, which didn't work anywhere near as well as I expected. Those cheap jumper cables don't work at 4 GHz either. At least I amused the RF guys for a while.