Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Building the AV Sound room
bridgman #410264 02/16/15 04:12 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
Originally Posted By: bridgman

Anyways, here's one argument for conduit:

A second vote for conduit.
Not much will change in the big scheme of things. HDMI/Display Port are two of the few things that might. That being said, since we installed our conduit during the building process, i can now run Gigabit ethernet cabling if required. I can never remember if i installed Cat5 or Cat5e cabling those 9 years ago. Theoretically i can use the Cat5 but i should probably upgrade it.
I can easily do that with the conduit.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Building the AV Sound room
bridgman #410265 02/16/15 04:16 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
Originally Posted By: bridgman
wall plates with banana jacks or actually running the wires out a hole to your speakers ? After thinking about it a bit it's the "wires hanging out of the wall" part I don't like, since that's what makes them vulnerable to damage and puts you in a situation where you might want longer wires later.

I thought about the wall plates vs. the wires. We have a wall plate with a hole in the middle and just wires (for now).
I wasn't sure 100% about the QS8 placement and wanted to use the wire to move the speaker around. At some point if we decide the location is fixed, then we'll cut the wires short, add a wall plate with banana plugs, then run a fixed length wire from the wall plate to the speaker.
I can't say the 'loose' wires are in the way for any cleaning purposes and there would be no reason for anyone to yank on the small length (< 1') that runs to the speaker. It adds flexibility for placement until you are sure of the location.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Building the AV Sound room
chesseroo #410268 02/16/15 05:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,310
Likes: 2
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,310
Likes: 2
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
A second vote for conduit.
Not much will change in the big scheme of things. HDMI/Display Port are two of the few things that might. That being said, since we installed our conduit during the building process, i can now run Gigabit ethernet cabling if required. I can never remember if i installed Cat5 or Cat5e cabling those 9 years ago. Theoretically i can use the Cat5 but i should probably upgrade it.
I can easily do that with the conduit.

Ahh, good point - conduit between electronics and display would be really useful, even if wires between electronics and speakers are sufficient.

Maybe "conduit between electronics and anything that isn't a speaker" is the correct wording.

Last edited by bridgman; 02/16/15 05:44 PM.

M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti, EP500, PC-Plus 20-39
M5HP, M40ti, Sierra-1
LFR1100 active, ADA1500-4 and -8
Re: Building the AV Sound room
MatManhasgone #410273 02/16/15 06:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
Just a quick couple of thoughts.

You want some level of separation between electrical wires and network/audio/video cabling. You run the risk of interference if you put them too close. Best practices for network wiring states that if you have to run a network cable near an electrical cable, try to NOT run them parallel, and if they must cross, make it as a 90 degree angle to reduce the proximity. I don't know what would happen if you put your network terminations right next to all of the electrical going in/out of the breaker box.

Not saying that it won't work, but just to use a bit of caution and maybe research it a bit.

As for conduit, you have hit the age old problem of filling up the conduit with current wiring and not having room for new.

There are really only a couple of solutions. 1) run 2 conduits in parallel with each other. One for now, and one for expansion. 2) Reduce what you put into the conduit by taking things like the 12ga speaker wire and not putting it in the conduit. Speaker wire should be fairly safe if protected by a decent height off of the floor and placed far enough back to prevent a nail/screw from hitting it (or use stud cable protector plates). That should open up some space inside the conduit.

Keep in mind that the conduit also needs very gentle curves in order to get any future cabling through it and a lot more space than you think you may need.

Otherwise, this is going to be fun to follow the progress.


2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120
Re: Building the AV Sound room
nickbuol #410282 02/17/15 02:10 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 5,289
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Just a quick couple of thoughts.

You want some level of separation between electrical wires and network/audio/video cabling. You run the risk of interference if you put them too close.

That would have to be one pretty big power cable.

Quote:
I don't know what would happen if you put your network terminations right next to all of the electrical going in/out of the breaker box.

Nothing.
I know several people who have their home routers wired with all incoming and outgoing connections at the electrical junction box.
Quote:

Reduce what you put into the conduit by taking things like the 12ga speaker wire and not putting it in the conduit. Speaker wire should be fairly safe if protected by a decent height off of the floor and placed far enough back to prevent a nail/screw from hitting it (or use stud cable protector plates). That should open up some space inside the conduit.

There was consideration to put speaker wire in a conduit???
It is just speaker wire. By the time that wire type may change, we'll all be long dead.
The only thing speaker wire needs to be for construction is rated for in-wall use (CL2 if i recall).

Quote:

Keep in mind that the conduit also needs very gentle curves in order to get any future cabling through it and a lot more space than you think you may need.

45 degree elbows are fine. The 90 degree elbows are problematic.


"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Building the AV Sound room
MatManhasgone #410284 02/17/15 02:46 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,105
M
connoisseur
OP Offline
connoisseur
M
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 1,105
I in one of my past lives worked for a company named LanStart, and I use to design co-ax & 10baseT lan systems day in and day out. (if that doesn't date my age)

The rule of thumb in pulling cables was to have a 1' separation. The worst was not power cables but florescent lights. In my install, I have a good 20" below the breaker box and I was going to loop the network bundle in a good loop below the breaker so that they stay clear of the convergence of lines in that might induce traffic on the network. I have no lights in the ceiling to worry about, and the only florescent lights are in the laundry room and I don't have network drops in that room. Even if the washing machine had a network port I wouldn't use it.

I DO have CL2 rated speaker wire, and with the way that the basement walls are getting put up, I also happen to have a gap between the blanket insulation wrap that is already up and the stud walls I am adding (and filling with Roxol Comfortbats).

Just for the fun of it, I tried to push down the Solidmate 25ft 22AWG CL2 High Speed HDMI Cable. it is supposed to be good for 4K signals with wide colour. Now going down the conduit was good through the first bend at the beginning, but the second bend it did take a bit of coaxing to get it around, but after that it went quite smoothly. I know from pulling cables that you need to thread a puller string to get the cable down and pull in additional wires. If I was replacing the HDMI, i would attach the replacement cable to it and pull the old cable out to get the new one in.


Anthem: AVM60
Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A
Re: Building the AV Sound room
chesseroo #410287 02/17/15 04:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
Originally Posted By: chesseroo
Originally Posted By: nickbuol
Just a quick couple of thoughts.

You want some level of separation between electrical wires and network/audio/video cabling. You run the risk of interference if you put them too close.

That would have to be one pretty big power cable.


Best practice in network engineering states that you need to keep them separated and not run directly next to each other. As a certified network engineer, this is what we are taught, and not just for commercial installations. Network cables have built in noise resistance, but it is more for radio interference (not radio stations, but radio signals that can come from a variety of sources, including household power). Noise resistance does not mean noise proof. Heck my phone is water resistant. It can be submerged in water for 30 minutes before running the risk of issues (I am sure that there are some caveats) but it can't stay underwater indefinitely without problems. If building from scratch, why wouldn't you follow best practices as much as possible? If doing a retrofit, then yeah, you have to make compromises some times.


Quote:
I don't know what would happen if you put your network terminations right next to all of the electrical going in/out of the breaker box.

Quote:
Nothing.
I know several people who have their home routers wired with all incoming and outgoing connections at the electrical junction box.

Good to know. Like I said, I didn't know because I don't have any personal experience with this. You don't either, but know people that do. My experience here is more on the commercial side where building power and network closets are kept apart. Granted that the incoming main runs are significantly more power that to a residential home. However, even when that building power drops down to regular current levels run to cubicles, the power lines have their own troughs that they run through in the floors or drops from the ceiling even than what the network lines run through. Server rooms also separate the power from the network runs with power under the raised floor and the network cable run on what are called ladders up above the servers. This serves a few purposes, but one of them is to keep the data lines away from power.

The last time I personally saw power and networking in a close proximity at one of my employers was back in 1994 and that company didn't follow any standards and they suffered for it for other reasons. Their network equipment and servers were so sub-par that I can't say that the power proximity was an issue because they were just prone to failure either way.

Quote:

Reduce what you put into the conduit by taking things like the 12ga speaker wire and not putting it in the conduit. Speaker wire should be fairly safe if protected by a decent height off of the floor and placed far enough back to prevent a nail/screw from hitting it (or use stud cable protector plates). That should open up some space inside the conduit.

Quote:

There was consideration to put speaker wire in a conduit???
It is just speaker wire. By the time that wire type may change, we'll all be long dead.
The only thing speaker wire needs to be for construction is rated for in-wall use (CL2 if i recall).


The second to last paragraph in the original post talked about putting speaker wire in the conduit. Like you, I was just saying that it wasn't worth it. Keep it off the floor to protect against any potential critters (heaven forbid) and protect them inside the stud and there is no need for conduit.

Quote:

Keep in mind that the conduit also needs very gentle curves in order to get any future cabling through it and a lot more space than you think you may need.

Quote:

45 degree elbows are fine. The 90 degree elbows are problematic.

Exactly my point. I had 2 large curves in my 3" PVC conduit (the gray PVC made for this stuff) made up of four 45 degree curves to make them more gradual (they were BIG curves). I couldn't even push one of my HDMI cables through it to my projector because the HDMI cable was so thick and stiff. That was when the conduit was empty. I ran all of the cables to my projector outside of the conduit and kept it there for future expansion only. I figure that if I need to add something later, I can just attach the new cable to my pull cord, and use some electrical grease on it to help it around the bends if need be.

So Matt, do what you wish, but since you are down to studs, you have a lot more flexibility. No sweat off my back if you do something different. You seemed to be asking for opinions, so I gave you mine based off of real hands on training and experience. Does it mean that doing something else won't work fine too? Heck no. You could zip-tie the cat5 to a power line and have everything work just fine. I guess I am more of a "use the tried and true" method and not just enough to get me by or risk of future issues. This has proven to be more expensive for me down the road, but I know that it will be done with the least potential for any issues or degraded performance down the road.

This is all fairly contested information. Google searches will yield the best practices that I mention, but also have people that say that they don't have issues doing something less than best practice.


2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120
Re: Building the AV Sound room
MatManhasgone #410290 02/17/15 11:45 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,449
shareholder in the making
Offline
shareholder in the making
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 11,449
I go out of my way to run all my wires along fluorescent tubes on dimmers on poorly grounded circuits.

To me, the increased harmonic distortions are reminiscent of a 1950s-era tube amp and impart a classic rock and roll sound into everything I listen to,making everything more musical.


::::::: No disrespect to Axiom, but my favorite woofer is my yellow lab :::::::
Re: Building the AV Sound room
MatManhasgone #410291 02/17/15 02:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,593
A
connoisseur
Offline
connoisseur
A
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,593
Yep, we have our pee pees slapped if we put ANY network or extra low voltage signal cables run free air parallel within 1' of any current carrying conductors. Run in metal conduit you can run closer. There is actually code rules that state near a certain voltage you have to maintain a certain seperation. Too lazy to find it unless someone wants it.

If you use an enclosed metal network cabinet any noise induced power concerns are negated. Just dont expect a WIFI router to do its job if you locate it in the same cabinet. I know you already know all of this stuff Matt. smile This is for the lurkers. Hi lurkers. wink ::wave::

WRT the whole radius of bends issue, the only time it really matters for signal cables is if running fiber optic. Unless you pull with connectors on. Then just make a smooth head with some tape to negotiate the snags in the corners. Here is a handy trick for all those looking to fit stuff into a conduit that is tough to fish or push into.

Tie a piece of plastic bag onto some pulling twine. Shape it like a balloon tying at the base of the balloon. This is called a "mouse." Put the mouse in one end of the conduit and make sure it fills the area completely. Grab a shop vac and suck the mouse through by putting the nozzle on the other end. Then tie onto the twine and pull your cables\fishtape in. We pull parkades like this with PVC conduit in slab. A mouse will travel a hundred feet in less than a couple of seconds. Pretty cool. Just pull another twine in with the cables if you ever need to add additional lines without removing existing.

Last edited by Serenity_Now; 02/17/15 02:27 PM.
Re: Building the AV Sound room
MarkSJohnson #410292 02/17/15 02:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
axiomite
Offline
axiomite
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,417
Originally Posted By: MarkSJohnson
I go out of my way to run all my wires along fluorescent tubes on dimmers on poorly grounded circuits.

To me, the increased harmonic distortions are reminiscent of a 1950s-era tube amp and impart a classic rock and roll sound into everything I listen to,making everything more musical.


Does that actually work to make things sound more musical? I haven't seen it on those elitist A/V websites yet. I might have to stop at Home Depot after work and get some fluorescent tubes and set something up. grin

Again, my post is just what the "experts" train as best practices. There are many things that aren't "best practices" about my setup, but if the effort is little or no additional cost or time to reduce most of the proximity, then why not?

But back to the fluorescent tubes. Do they have to be run inside the walls, or can I mount them in the room? Can I use blacklight tubes? What about simulated sunlight tubes so that I can get a tan while listening to music?


2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  alan, Amie, Andrew, axiomadmin, Brent, Debbie, Ian, Jc 

Link Copied to Clipboard

Need Help Graphic

Forum Statistics
Forums16
Topics24,360
Posts431,623
Members15,414
Most Online2,082
Jan 22nd, 2020
Top Posters
Ken.C 18,044
pmbuko 16,437
SirQuack 13,680
CV 11,797
MarkSJohnson 11,449
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 139 guests, and 3 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newsletter Signup
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4