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#416201 - 01/02/16 11:00 PM ATmos
TroyD Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 602
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, CA
OK quick question.

ATMOS for the rear side speakers they now spec out direct radiating.
This eliminates the Q's
What are people using for rears and sides ?
What are you using for ceiling ? are the round inceiling speakers made for ATMOS ?

Would the M22 be good for the rear and sides ?
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#416218 - 01/03/16 06:41 PM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5316
Loc: Marion, IA
I swapped out my QS8s for M3 on-walls with anticipation of Atmos and DTS:X and really like them.

My plans for ceiling speakers are to get unfinished M3 onwalls, painting them to match my ceiling, and making a custom "mount" that puts them at a slight angle towards the listening area. The angle is mainly because of my ceiling being less than 8 feet tall, so my plan it to try them a little further away to compensate for the lacking height, and then angle them to compensate for them being further away.

Someone else here has the M3 in-ceiling speakers and wishes that the tweeter was aimable.

Hopefully that helps a little.
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#416224 - 01/03/16 09:05 PM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
Strider53 Offline
veteran

Registered: 04/11/12
Posts: 152
Loc: Detroit
Can a full metal bracket be used for wall mounting an M 3 on wall speaker?
I believe it was NewF with the in ceiling, wishing they were aim-able.
/Jeff


Edited by Strider53 (01/03/16 09:07 PM)

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#416227 - 01/03/16 11:48 PM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
MatManhasgone Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 970
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
There was another thread on here with a link to a home theater YouTube that discussed Atmos and home theater design.

It also went into the description of how speaker setup and sound stage gets processed in the HT environment.

On the understanding of how Atmos is implemented inside an actual theater, the word that I got was that if you are moving to a 9 or 11 channel implementation, that you will get a far better bang for the buck putting in a front wide (9) and only 2 ceiling speakers (11) as the mixing will minimize the dead sound zone between the front and surround in any sound panning. The comment was that you will see that far more than any overhead sounds in most movies.

The other rather interesting bit was the description of how surround sound is handled. In the theater you have an array of side speakers. In 5.1 and 7.1 mixes, these arrays are handled as one so the same sound comes out of the array of lets say 5 speakers. To ones ears that is a large defuse sound. Under Atmos, there is the ability to address each of those same 5 speakers individually. That does give you either more control over a sweeping pan, or to accurately define a location, but you still need to remember the theater has 5 speakers. In your home you have ONE.

This sort of gives you a choice. Do you want that one speaker to be a large defuse sound that covers a large area, or more pinpoint accurate with large sound holes between the front and rear surround speaker coverage? Unless you are putting in multiple side surround speakers in your implementation, you will loose sound coverage to gain accuracy. That is a choice you need to make.

The Dolby spec need to be taken with a grain of salt as you look towards what will give you the sound that was intended and also you enjoy.
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#416247 - 01/04/16 02:44 PM Re: ATmos [Re: MatManhasgone]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5316
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By oakvillematt
There was another thread on here with a link to a home theater YouTube that discussed Atmos and home theater design.

It also went into the description of how speaker setup and sound stage gets processed in the HT environment.

On the understanding of how Atmos is implemented inside an actual theater, the word that I got was that if you are moving to a 9 or 11 channel implementation, that you will get a far better bang for the buck putting in a front wide (9) and only 2 ceiling speakers (11) as the mixing will minimize the dead sound zone between the front and surround in any sound panning. The comment was that you will see that far more than any overhead sounds in most movies.

The other rather interesting bit was the description of how surround sound is handled. In the theater you have an array of side speakers. In 5.1 and 7.1 mixes, these arrays are handled as one so the same sound comes out of the array of lets say 5 speakers. To ones ears that is a large defuse sound. Under Atmos, there is the ability to address each of those same 5 speakers individually. That does give you either more control over a sweeping pan, or to accurately define a location, but you still need to remember the theater has 5 speakers. In your home you have ONE.

This sort of gives you a choice. Do you want that one speaker to be a large defuse sound that covers a large area, or more pinpoint accurate with large sound holes between the front and rear surround speaker coverage? Unless you are putting in multiple side surround speakers in your implementation, you will loose sound coverage to gain accuracy. That is a choice you need to make.

The Dolby spec need to be taken with a grain of salt as you look towards what will give you the sound that was intended and also you enjoy.


I experienced a CEDIA 2014 demo (when Atmos was demo'd for the first time), where they did a 9.1.4 setup and people asked about the front wides, and (I wish I remember the manufacturer/vendor) the guy said that they actually have a lot of preference towards a 9.1.2 setup OVER a 7.1.4. I believe that I posted that here at some point. All I know is that the 9.1.4 setup was really impressive, then again, there was something like $25,000 just is audio processors to do it, plus amplification, etc at the time.

I also agree that the Dolby specs need to be taken with a few grains of salt. I was in a discussion in a home theater group on Facebook just last week with a senior sound engineer about a few audio topics, and he at one point even mentioned that specs are put out there for creating a "target to shoot for" and that things are more flexible. At one point he even stated that a speaker (implied to mean Atmos ceiling speaker) could be even 10-20 degrees out of Dolby spec for location placement and still yield 95% positive result. Things are pretty flexible, up to a point, and then they drop into the toilet (my words, not his) pretty quickly.

I am on the verge of experimenting even more with my side surrounds by moving them to be slighting in front of my front row of seats. I find that the surround field effects are AMAZING in the 2nd row seats in my theater, but I like sitting up front, so I want to put my front row into that same large surround soundfield. I would think that this could be deemed unnecessary if I installed some front wide speakers instead. It was this discussion about putting side surround in front of the listening position and how that went against Dolby (and others) spec that started the conversation with him about the flexibility available, particularly with Atmos.
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#416263 - 01/04/16 07:17 PM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
MatManhasgone Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 970
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
I don't have an Atmos system and having never played with what options are out there, I am sure that some system implementations are going to be far superior than others.

Where I fall into wonder or worry is that unlike the DD5.1/7.1 that is a defined channel, the Atmos setup is sold more like a blank canvas where it uses the processor inside the AV unit to effectively deliver the sound using what speakers it has.

So I am left to wonder, in the setup of the Atmos system, how do you define what speakers you have, or more importantly, where the speakers you have are located?

Going back to your point of surround speakers infront of your seating position. When you look at the traditional movie theater layout with the array of surround speakers. The were a group of speakers along say the back 1/2 of the theater side walls. I know from going to many movies that the prime seating for best emersive surround effect was to sit 3/4 of the way back. That would put you in about the middle of that surround array with as much sound hitting your ears from infront of you as was coming from behind. If you sat in the front 1/2 of the theater then the sound surround timing would seem a bit to delayed. This held true for even the upgrade move to 7.1 from 5.1.

This lends me to question, if you can define speaker location would I prefer the 11.1 with front wides, surround front, surround back and surroiund rear.. (ie take the standard surround and break it into two with one say 20deg infront of my ears, and a second 20deg behind). I know everyone is looking for the ultimate sound bubble, but I guess it comes from how many movie mixes take advantage of the overhead sounds vs, more sound placement around you?

I am sure that the demo's at CES were hand picked to give the maximum effect possible. Why would you demo something that doesn't take full advantage of every possible sound you can produce. My question is how common practice is this in movie sound mixing design?


Edited by oakvillematt (01/04/16 07:19 PM)
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#416267 - 01/04/16 09:55 PM Re: ATmos [Re: nickbuol]
brwsaw Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 10/12/12
Posts: 1749
Loc: Canada
Having side surrounds inline with your knees can complete the bubble very nicely. You will want to turn down the sides so they whisper (from your seat) and allow your rears to be ever so slightly louder to complete the effect.


Edited by brwsaw (01/04/16 09:55 PM)
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#416273 - 01/04/16 10:46 PM Re: ATmos [Re: MatManhasgone]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5316
Loc: Marion, IA
Originally Posted By oakvillematt
I don't have an Atmos system and having never played with what options are out there, I am sure that some system implementations are going to be far superior than others.

Where I fall into wonder or worry is that unlike the DD5.1/7.1 that is a defined channel, the Atmos setup is sold more like a blank canvas where it uses the processor inside the AV unit to effectively deliver the sound using what speakers it has.

So I am left to wonder, in the setup of the Atmos system, how do you define what speakers you have, or more importantly, where the speakers you have are located?

Going back to your point of surround speakers infront of your seating position. When you look at the traditional movie theater layout with the array of surround speakers. The were a group of speakers along say the back 1/2 of the theater side walls. I know from going to many movies that the prime seating for best emersive surround effect was to sit 3/4 of the way back. That would put you in about the middle of that surround array with as much sound hitting your ears from infront of you as was coming from behind. If you sat in the front 1/2 of the theater then the sound surround timing would seem a bit to delayed. This held true for even the upgrade move to 7.1 from 5.1.

This lends me to question, if you can define speaker location would I prefer the 11.1 with front wides, surround front, surround back and surroiund rear.. (ie take the standard surround and break it into two with one say 20deg infront of my ears, and a second 20deg behind). I know everyone is looking for the ultimate sound bubble, but I guess it comes from how many movie mixes take advantage of the overhead sounds vs, more sound placement around you?

I am sure that the demo's at CES were hand picked to give the maximum effect possible. Why would you demo something that doesn't take full advantage of every possible sound you can produce. My question is how common practice is this in movie sound mixing design?


We all need some lab room to experiment and a rich benefactor to pay for us to fly there and spend a week playing with technology. :-)

As for the speaker configuration, I had my Onkyo fail a couple of weeks ago and while it was off for the extended warranty "audio dropout" fix, I "borrowed" a newer Onkyo with Atmos. I could tell a difference right away with Atmos content even with a 7.1 configuration. During the initial setup, it asked me how many speakers and where they were located... Wides? Overheads? Etc. Then it did its calibration.
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#416285 - 01/05/16 08:45 AM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
MatManhasgone Offline
aficionado

Registered: 05/06/14
Posts: 970
Loc: Lost in the great wide yonder
The question of where they are located is more than just wides and overheads. Should is not also need to know the relative X-Y-Z distance and offset from the listening position? Surely if the sound mix is to be able to drive sound with any form of accuracy, it needs to know where the speakers are relative to the seating position
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Axiom: ADA1000, LFR1100, VP180, QS8, EP500, M3, M3comp
AudioSource: Amp One/A

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#416287 - 01/05/16 08:57 AM Re: ATmos [Re: TroyD]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5316
Loc: Marion, IA
Yup. I agree. I just don't know how that is done. I simply answered the question as to how the receiver/processor knows what the speaker configuration is (wides, heights, 5.1, 7.1, 5.1.2, 5.1.4, 7.1.2, 7.1.4, 9.1.2, whatever).

I am sure that some of it comes into play with the basic room calibration done with the microphone that most units include where it gets the distances, but while that works fine for speakers in the same plane (like 5.1, 7.1, and 9.1 using wides), it doesn't say if that overhead speaker that it detects as 7 feet away is straight overhead in a room with 10 foot ceilings, or out in front of the listening position in a room with 8 foot ceilings.

If I had overhead speakers when I had that receiver, maybe it would have done some measuring my sending different sounds to multiple speakers to try and triangulate some level of relative space, or maybe it would have asked me how high my ceiling was, I don't know. But yes, I agree 100% that there should be, and maybe is, some way that the receiver/processor knows your speaker layout with more accuracy to account for the overhead speakers. I just didn't want to try to rig some crazy thing up to put speakers up on my ceiling for a few days in the middle of the Christmas/New Years craziness. Ok, I WANTED to, but didn't have enough time and didn't know how I would rig it up. LOL
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