Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion What's New At Axiom LFRs Improve Your Image

So often I am asked what can be done to achieve the best audio experience, as I am sure most of you are too. I think there are three main things you need to have; dynamics, neutrality, and imaging. These are the things that can make you feel like the artists are in the room with you. Dynamics are very much a function of both the amplifier and the speakers; you need enough power and dynamic headroom to never hit the limits of the amplifier and you need speakers that can handle it without straining. The other two, neutrality and imaging, are very much attributes of the speakers (the family of curves to put a finer point on it). The way I am achieving this audio nirvana is a pair of LFR1100s hooked to big ADA1500 amplifiers. With this said I have been thinking about how to get more people experiencing our LFR series omnidirectional speakers combined with big power. For those of you who already own them I think you can appreciate why this would make for some very happy customers.

It is always tough to explain what the experience is like listening to LFRs. They are not the traditional Bi-pole or Di-pole omnidirectional speakers. This is because we are controlling the front and rear outputs independently with the goal to make the listening window and sound power curves perfect (the family of curves to put a finer point on it). Here is the graph of the LFR1100s to demonstrate what is going on with the listening window and sound power:



The overall tonal balance is not disturbed doing this; they sound tonally like improved versions of the M60s, M80s, or M100s but the soundstage becomes incredibly 3-Dimensional; it is really cool to experience.

There are other attributes about the LFRs that make them exceptional. The ease that they handle dynamics is exceptional with all those drivers in place sharing the load. And then there is the ability to walk around the room and never leave the sweet-spot. It is like the sweet-spot is following you around. We tried to come up with a little graphic to show this:





Then there is the advantage of the added amplification. This I think can be viewed both ways, as having the DSP and the extra amp channels also adds a level of complication and expense to the equation. But these things aside, there is nothing better than lots of power if you want to crank things up a bit. Turning it up and hitting the dynamic limits of your receiver is downright painful but turning it up and it having it just get more dynamic is heaven. I am now getting into running a separate ADA1500-2 for each my right and left LFR1100, though this could be considered borderline lunacy.

Now it comes down to how to make the decision to go with LFRs as easy as possible. We have decided to make adding the amplifier to an LFR purchase a bundle price and give 25% off the cost of the amp when purchased with a pair of LFRs. I am also thinking about doing a one-time special offer of allowing the full amount you paid, no matter how long ago you purchased, for any trade-up to the equivalent or higher model in the LFR line.

Does any of this sound enticing?

Nice! Generous offer.

Enticing is a good word for it.

Offering a bundle with amp and speakers seems like a really good idea. Very few people are going to have 4 channels of amplification sitting around so buying both at the same time seems like it would be pretty common (and you already have to ship the DSP).

IIRC you mentioned building DSP into an amp before, although I think it was the -1000 and LFR's seem like a better match with 1500's unless they are a solid 4 ohms in the important regions, which I don't think is the case.

The trade-up offer seems overly generous at first glance (I have enough tradeable Axiom speakers to single-handedly make you reconsider, and at some point I'll probably trade them all in on some LFR1100's) but it might make sense for a while to seed some LFR's that others can listen to. Maybe combine with an expectation of allowing a few auditions ?

The diagrams are a good idea and worth including on the LFR product pages. You described the effect to me already but even so the diagrams seemed like a useful addition, since they make a nice simple connection between the sound from the rear of the speakers and the larger listening area.

Out of curiosity, what updates have been made to the LFR1100s since they were first released? I shouldn't ask. I don't have disposable income to speak of for the foreseeable future.

The LFR-1100's with the ADA-1500-4 make for one spectacular speaker package. Throw in an EP-800, and they are in the super speaker class.

I auditioned a pair of Magico SS-5's ($40,000 per pair) with a JL Audio Fathom 113 ($5000), and while they were really good, they lacked the depth and width in sound stage of the LFR-1100 system.

Considering the Magicos were being driven by $20,000 worth of MacIntosh mono bloc amps and an $8000 preamp, and we are looking at a $73,000 system.

The entire Axiom system with pre-amp was about $12,000.

so for those of us who already own the LFR's, do we get a deal, like a discount to upgrade our ADA amp to a more powerful model?

Thanks for the info. I think this is a great idea and shows customers your commitment to giving them a positive experience. Unfortunately my tiny house won't allow the space for LFR's so I'll just dream along with you lucky ones!

Ian, you need to add "makes your room seem larger" to the marketing materials

That is a good point. It is a really good deal compared to an addition to your house.

That's too funny. My wife actually does want an addition on the house - now I'll have to make LFR's part of the deal if we ever do it!

I'm a new poster here but have had great axiom products for years. My lfr 660s have provided me with 2 years of music bliss. Ian is right about the sound stage, I can move around on my couch anywhere and nothing changes. Beore my lfrs if I moved 6 inches things started to get out of whack. My lfrs are the best!

Sorry about my name being ebZCXxc as this was my verification code. One of these days I'll have to change it to southguy. I guess this proves I am a very very newbie to all of this!

Whoops, my bad. They are "a solid 4 ohms in the important regions" so a single -1000 amp should be able to deliver 4x250W.

OK, so now I understand where the ADA-1000 fits.

Hmm...

I was poking around looking at LFR1100 options and noticed that (a) once you select high power woofers the cost difference between LFR880 and 1100 is pretty reasonable and (b) the additional cost for adding an ADA-1000 integrated with the DSP is *really* attractive already.

Trade-up on the M60s and M3s looks decent... if I was smart I would add the M5HPs to the trade-up list as well but I *really* like them (even better than M60v4's)... they're in "from my cold dead hands" territory right now.

Hmm...

The amplification power requirements for the LFR's are sort of out there. The front set of speakers are a 3way and are rated at 4ohms. The back set of speakers however are only 2way and actually i was told from Andrew that they come in at 8ohms.

Effectively then with the ADA1000 you are getting 2x250+2x125 for power.

To throw more confusion into the big picture, the rear channels do not nearly as much sound volume as the fronts do. I own a set and know that if I pull the connectors from the front speakers so i am only driving the rear set, the amount of sound drops to a fraction of loudness. So the rear speakers are not producing the exact same sound as the front. This is the beauty of the DSP in it does do magic filtering to make the reflected sound fill in what you are wanting to hear when standing in the front of the speakers.

So that known, you really are not using anywhere near the 125w of power available for the rear drivers as is given by the ADA1000. Though looking at the design spec for the ADA1000, there is no difference in max power output driving just 2 speakers at 4ohms vs 4 speakers. The question to ask is what sort of effect does having the DSP driving rear speakers have with the larger ADA1250 or ADA1500? I have yet to get an answer though I have tried to ask many times

We need to get someone to take away Ian's pair of 1500-2's, replace them with a single 1500-4, and see what happens

The world of power requirements for audio reproduction can be a bit confusing. I think the main reason for this is the use of the continuous RMS power output as the benchmark measurement (not that I necessarily have a better one mind you). But for audio what is important is the peak power available for the dynamics not the continuous RMS output. The dynamic power available is determined by three factors; the continuous RMS output capability, the size of the power supply, and the amount of capacitance storage available. With a big power supply and lots of capacitance storage you can safely use a factor of 3 times the continuous RMS output as a good number available for dynamic output (this multiplier could be higher as the impedance of the speaker rises above 4 ohms). Keep in mind that for virtually all receivers and even some big power amps the multiplier for dynamic power is likely only 1 or just slightly more than 1. Consider you want 15dB of available head room for dynamics. This means you will need 32 times the continuous power to achieve it. So it we use the ADA1500 as an example we would have around 2,000 watts available for dynamics (650 x 3). Dividing this by 32 gives us 62.5 watts continuous. So we don’t need the 650 continuous watts available in the ADA1500 for our continuous power requirement, but to have a high enough peak power to allow for listening at 62.5 watts continuous. The last piece of the puzzle is how many channels the power supply can drive to full power at the same time. Once you cross this line both your continuous and peak power will start to drop per channel if all channels require the max all at the same time.

It's that last sentence that really sums it all up. And this is where we need the guidance as you are using the 4 channels of the amp to drive 2 speakers.

Now if you were bi-amping this were one amp channel was being used to drive the large woofer set, and the second channel was getting used to drive the smaller mids and tweeters, you likely would be saying the power pull on the channel driving the woofers would be much higher than that of the mids/tweeters as those drivers have a much bigger coil and far more displacement moving a larger mass cone.

Can the same be said for the rear set of drivers on the LFR? So in essence, the ADA1500 will likely be getting a dynamic output closer to 2000w than the 1050w (350x3) if you were driving a full range speaker on each channel instead of the DSP driven rear LFR channel.

Hypothetically of corse .. not trying to back you into a corner and committing to something that has too many variables to quantify exactly.

I am looking at it from the side that the ADA1000 in reality gives you an upper limit of 750w.

My question is why more capacitance is not used in amplifiers , is this a space restriction issue or is there a limit to the effectiveness. On my sub in my car i have a large capacitor since lead acid batteries do not like to release huge amount of current . It also keep my headlight from flashing

I will start by answering Socketman. The amount of capacitance should be a balance decided by the amp designer. At some point increasing the capacitance further will mean you should also be increasing the continuous power output of the amp modules and the power supply that go with that increased capacitance. The flip side is reducing the capacitance; this can be an easy way to save a lot of money in the cost of the amp without reducing your continuous RMS power specification; this has the appearance of more watts for the dollar.

Matt is entering the area of multiple amp power management to get the biggest bang for the buck. The impedance curve is helpful in figuring this out. You can take an educated guess from a single impedance curve but if you can get separate impedance curves for the woofer section and the mid/tweeter section even better. The phase is also a factor here but let us leave that out for now. As the impedance rises the current demand to achieve the same SPL is reduced (assuming linear amplitude response from the speaker). Since the standard impedance curve rises with frequency it follows that it requires less power from the amp to drive these higher frequencies. So if you own more than one amp with the same gain but different power levels you should drive the mid/tweeter section with the smaller amp; or in the case of an LFR, drive the rear channels with the smaller amp. You can get a quick answer to what the amp differences should be by just dividing the higher impedance by the lower impedance. So if the rear of the LFRs are running around 10 ohms and the front around 4 ohms you would need 2.5 times the power to the front (10/4). An ADA1000 for the rear at 250 watts and an ADA1500 for the front at 650 watts works out pretty well.

So this is where we get into the dumb questions - if the rear is running 8-10 ohms then doesn't that reduce the power available from an ADA-1000 to 125W from 250W (presumably a function of rail voltage) ?

This is the confusing part, but try to think of the power in terms of SPL instead of watts. The watts are just a number to achieve the desired SPL.

So i got this email the other day about this rather incredible deal. It really has me thinking.
I've been contemplating a change out of the M60s for some time for numerous reasons. I thought about getting some Monitor Audio speakers (now making many more 3-way designs) and keeping the M60s for the kids into the future.
But, a 100% trade in value?

This is seriously tempting.

Ian, expect to see a PM in your inbox. I have questions.

Hi Can I assume that I will not get full price for my M80v3's if I trade up to LFR880's if purchased through B-Stock or as refurbished?

Cheese. I went from m60's to LFR's. At the time i was considering a pair of pre-owned wilsons... I'm glad i went with the LFR's.


Ian, what if one wanted updated cabinets.. But wanted to maintain their serial number and signatures....


Would that be worth while? I know there have been some updates to the cabinet design..

That sounds like me! Except I bought my own stuff and Ian still has his...

Hi Dakkon,

It may be worth considering a trade-in for the v4 LFR1100s as you would get the new tweeters, woofers, crossovers, and code too. We can figure out a good deal for you on that and keep your special rear labels.

I updated mine but had to send back my original set and get new ones. I never asked but I'm sure that signatures could be redone on your new set.

This upgrade is very worthwhile! I see Ian just posted that you could just get your labels moved.

For those of you with LFRs, I am curious about a couple of things.

Do any of you have them set up assymetrically in a room? By that I mean do you have one closer to a sidewall than the other? I am curious what such placement would have on soundstage and imaging performance.

My other question has to do with imaging precision. I am not new to omni-directional speakers. I owned 601s and have listened to 901s and Mirages. Also KEFs that advertise the large sweet spot. I am far more impressed with the holography of the soundstage from my M5s and M100s than any of the above (there's just no comparison). Now I know the LFRs are far more refined than all the above but I can't help but be skeptical about imaging precision. I was listening to Jacques Loussier on M5s last night and I swear the percussion was 3 feet outside my livingroom window and the piano was well inside and 6 feet away from my left M5. Can I get that kind of performance from LFRs?

Thanks, Charles. The page you posted above doesn't answer my question about asymmetry. I want to hear about that and imaging precision from owners. And BTW, "breadth of the center image", as described by Ryan Waniata, doesn't count. My 601s and KEFs I've heard have a huuuuuge center image. In fact, that's all there is - center image. Those who have never heard Axiom's v4 think that center image is pretty sweet. Of course then they listen to my v4 and they're wrecked forever. It's difficult to convince myself that LFRs are better in the imaging department than the bipolar v4. Wider soundstage maybe but not imaging. I wouldn't give up the holographic soundstage I enjoy with the v4 for anything!

Mojo, I know I wasn't helping you at all. I just wanted to post the link for the LFR1100 Active somewhere, and your thread was winking at me.

I'm really happy with what my first-gen LFR1100s do for me, but I know I don't have them dialed in as well as yours are. I did play with positioning a couple of weeks ago and felt I improved them significantly. If I just keep doing that, maybe I'll get there, right?

Charles, I think you need to upgrade to the actives.

As for the actives, those can't be the correct specs.

No, I think they're just using the normal LFR1100 info as a placeholder.

The LFR1100 Active product page in a work in progress right now but will be done by Monday. I will start a new thread about it so you can see what is coming soon.

Ian - is there going to be a way to retrofit a pair of 1100's into the actives? I could possibly drive them to the factory this fall.

Hi Craig,

That would be a tough modification. I think a trade-up would be best. But you still need to make the trip to the factory because it is fun!

Ian, a trip up to Dwight is always fun! I will keep an eye open for further news.

Hey! Craig Chase
my distant audio chum
who put me onto v4
and now I'm comfortably numb.

I think this answers my question, Charles. What I don't know is whether or not the LFR actives are as pin-point as the non-LFR v4.

"Omnidirectional speakers have had a cult following among music lovers ‘in the know’ for years. Why? Because their wide-open 3D soundstage transforms your room into a huge concert venue. Traditionally they have done this at the expense of the pinpoint detail, but now you can have both! By using a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) between the front and rear drivers the LFR series of omnidirectional speakers have both a wide-open 3D soundstage and pinpoint detail."