Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Denon 3802, H/K 520, or Marantz 5200?

For my m50 setup which one will be:
a. Best for HT
b. Will do music justice
c. Have the best possibilities for upgrades in the future (separates)
d. Can a newbie hook up?

J

go with the denon.

I would have to agree with Ravi.
Denon is a really good name, great sound and the 3802 is a darn nice model.
I do like H/K as well but i think the denon might be better for you. I believe Marantz just got bought out or merged with another company recently. I'll have to check that.

ravi's right go for the denon... decodes has all formats, good power,outstanding sound, great service

h/k is now made in china.....

Audition an Arcam receiver (AVR100 or 200). It will outright embarass the Denon for music. It doesn't do component video switching or power 7 speakers, but its music performance more than makes up for it.

NAD also makes fine receivers. Build quality and music performance are also substantially better than Denon.

I didn't audition the Denon when shopping for a receiver for two reasons: only one digital coaxial input and a fixed crossover of 80Hz. But, I must say, I've heard and read nothing but good things about the Denon's.
As far as Marantz, I was seriously thinking about buying a refurbed SR-8200 from www.ac4l.com. For $999 I think it's a steal. Personally, I wouldn't go any lower in the Marantz line than the 8200, just MHO.
I'm the owner of an h/k AVR520 (couldn't you tell?!) and all in all I'm happy with it. It finally came down to the h/k and the Onkyo 797 and the h/k sounded WAY better to me. The sound quality of the h/k through my M40's in "pure" 2-channel stereo is beautiful.
You should also keep an eye out for NAD's replacement for the T751, their new T752. It's not out yet, at least I don't think so, but it's specs look real good.
Good luck and happy hunting!

I agree with you that the Arcam sounds nice but the Denon is a better trade off for HT applications i would think.

Personally i view NAD as being overpriced and riding on old reputation for sales.

Marantz merged with Denon. This is apparently for the purposes of sharing R&D, and "consolidating the market" on mid-fi gear. The brands will be otherwise continue to be run as separate entities.

I've got the 3802 and am completely happy with it. I researched a LOT of receivers before making my decision. Also, my previous receiver was the Denon 1702 which I was quite happy with as well (but I wanted more!). The only reason I didn't consider the Marantz is because of the build quality complaints I kept reading about (I was looking at the 7200 at the time). I believe they are also made in China...if that has anything to do with it (?). I believe the H/K was out of my price range. It's a really cool looking reciever though! Altough I've never listened to HK, I've heard that they are neutral sounding much like the Denon (although some people complain about Denon for this reason...not being "musical" enough). Not to make things more confusing, but have you thought about the Onkyo 797? This is one that I wish I could have had the chance to listen to, but it was not yet available at any of the local shops here. Plus, a new sales guy was eager to make a sale and I talked him into internet prices on the Denon! I couldn't resist such a great deal...and again, I'm pleased with my decision.

Mary
(BTW, any other females here that read this board?)

Well????
any other females out there??


I don't know about the other males - but at least I would be happy to have/hear the female point of view on these topics (at least sometimes!)

Welcome sonicfox!


And about the receivers..... for dual HT/music use, I would recommend the Denon (but you might want to at least consider the Onkyo 797 or 989 and the Sony DA5ES if you can find a good deal [$765 at crazy eddy])

Randyman

If you have the cash the Onkyo has been a sweet machine so far. I was considering the Denon 4802 but it was just out of my price range. In fact, if i had not received such a great deal on the Onkyo i would've had something else.

I surely have enjoyed my HK 520. The lack of DD-EX is just a little disappointing, but the DTS-ES is so nice. I am beginning to add amps to the equation...but is slow process. I need more cabinet space. Anyway...the machince is pretty nice with a room to expand and a decent array of options.

Highly recommend the combination of the AVR520 with the Axiom speakers. It's like the sum is greater than the parts.
The AVR520 sounds more like seperate pre-amp/power amp combos than a receiver to me. Massive current in the power supplies. Musical sounding D/A convertors too when auditioned against Marantz and Yamaha.

Marantz was absorbed (i.e. bought out) by Philips (also known as Magnavox in North America). Quality control has since taken a dive...pity.

Denon is another company altogether.

Denon seems to be getting a lot of press here, but it's hard to beat good gear with an affordable price.. Yes, I too own the 3802.. No complaints.. Got it off 6thAVE.com when they were going for $700..
Is your theater system 5.1, 6.1 ? If 5.1, take a look at the Outlaw 1050.. Lot of stuff going on there for on $500.. I am the classic 'buyers remorse' type, and have wondered from time time if I should have gone 5 point oh? Two less surrounds, couple hun less for the AVR.. But, I soon forget all about that, when the house is rockin' with some slam bam action flick !! (Even when you forget to turn the subs back on! More on that later, over in the Home Theater forum)
This receiver was a step up from me from a Kenwood Pro Logic unit..
Yes, easy to set up, no big deal there.. FYI: The onscreen set up display for the Denon runs thru the S-vidio and/or composite, not the componet out..
I believe I 'will' be looking at a dual mono block setup for the M80 mains, for stereo music application.. I know there are more sounds inside those beauties, just waiting for me to find, and I've always wanted to get into tube amps..

Quote:

I believe I 'will' be looking at a dual mono block setup for the M80 mains, for stereo music application.. and I've always wanted to get into tube amps..
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Mikey:

I'm interested in knowing what you have in mind, or what's available, tube amps that drive 4 ohms in mono application. I'm having a terrible time finding something affordable!

OGS20, sorry, I was in a bit of a hurry when I typed that out.. I would like to have 'either' a couple of high power transistor mono blocks, or a big fat stereo tube set.. Sorry, but I'm still collecting data and details on this myself, and have not attempted to sort out prices as yet.. I've always heard great things about tube sets and their warm sounds, about time to take the next step up..

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FYI: The onscreen set up display for the Denon runs thru the S-vidio and/or composite, not the componet out..

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The Pioneer 45TX does the same. No on-screen display via the component out! I thought mine was defective until I read all the fine-prints in the manual.

Possibly some cheap mono blocks.....

For solid state mono blocks: $550 for 2 mono blocks

http://www.ird-thailand.com/products/mb100/mb100.htm

For tube mono blocks: $250 and up for two monoblocks

http://www.divertech.com/antiquesl.html#STEREO

Saturn:

Thanks for the suggestions. I actually have looked at the ASL amps. I'm just not sure how those tiny amps will match with the M80s, or how well I'll like them. I unfortunately think I will NOT like them -- I like my music loud

Which leads me to this, I will probably need amps with a "moderate" power level. ASL makes those amps, but those are 2000 USD per pair instead of 250 ...

Say Saturn, you mentioned before that you had purchased these IRD amps, right ? You bought 4 or 5 of them ? I've been going back to their web site from time to time, and this is partly the reason I have become interested in a pair of additional amps.. Just for the mains at present..
Are you still having success with them ? They living up to all your expectations ? Any problems or concerns ? Thks..

Hey Mikey;

Someone else has bought them in a 5 mono block setup. I myself will only get 3 to power the fronts. I did not get them yet. Kinda waiting till my new place is ready. Nov'03. But I will be getting from this place. It is the distribution place for IRD products. I called them up and also emailed them and it seemed everything is okey and checked. I always hate internet orders so I always double check the address and phone number on local listings.

http://buffaloelectronics.com/

Heres a paste on an email

We do not have distributors in Canada for our MB-100.

They are $499.00US$ per pair and limited stock (about 30 in stock)
Selling about 8 per week. (More enroute)

Shipping costs : Fed-Ex International Ground to Toronto is around $39.00US$.
1 box, 50 pounds, insured (2 units)
Generally little or no duty, for which the receiver is responsible. (worst case 2%)


Larry


Best Regards,
Larry Beach
Operations Manager

Buffalo Electronics, Inc.
1001-D West Tremont Avenue
Charlotte, NC 28203

E-mail: Larry@buffaloelectronics.com
Phone : (704) 375-3445
Orders: (888) 822-2410
Fax : (888) 453-0538


I have seen posts by Larry and Curt in numurous forums. Curt is the R&D person for IRD. Check out the distributor list and see if there is one close to you.

Thanks Saturn.. I'll have to go look up that other post..
So, you have to wait until Nov ? I hate getting an idea about something I just KNOW I need, and then having to wait more than a couple of weeks to buy it.. (Not that my wife would be the one preventing such things from happening sooner.. NO WAY ! haha)
Have you heard this amp, or similar ? Is there a nice difference in performance ? A solid improvement over the all-n-one units like my Denon 3802 ?

Mikey:

No I have not heard it. I have based it on reviews like my M22Ti purchase. But based on hearing a Denon 3802 vs higher amps like a Krell. When listening to regular listening levels MOST PEOPLE win not tell the difference. When listening to high higher levels you can find more distortion on the 3802 vs a Krell. But the Krell has higher power and must handle the signal better on bigger headroom. On very very low levels (this is kinda subjective) you cant tell the diffrence much but it you may tend to think a little more detail. The MB100 has good headroom. Its a 400VA power supply driving 100W amps @ 8 ohms. With music peak of 250W at 4 ohm level. And it is dead silent. Each monoblock weights in at 23 lbs. Get 2 of em and its heavier than my massive Rotel RSX 1065.
In the end is there a change in sound?...I doubt it...sound is mostly as good as your speakers....but it will drive any speakers .. nice..loud ... and most importantly clean with lots of headroom.



ps: I know I will be chastised for saying headroom.
Also as with purchasing based on reviews there is good and bad...M22Ti are great...nothing can beat its clearity, stage in its price range ($550 CDN)...next best maybe is like a Dynaudio Contour 1.1 ($1500) or 1.3 MK3 ($3100+)... but when I A/B switch them with my Monitor Audio Silver S6...I still like the sound of the S6 ($1250 CDN).

Saturn,
do you have the original silver series or those new updated ones?
I heard the older series had more of a boxy sound but i can't say personally, i've never heard either of them.
I'm interested in hearing Monitor Audio before my next purchases.

Chess:

I have the new updated Silver S6. The old ones Silver 6i or any model with the "i" or termed "Full Metal jacket" series had issues because they were still ironing out the bugs on the CAM drivers. The new models definitely are great. How do I describe the sound of the Silver S6? Well just imagine the M22 in a biger box with bigger drivers and getting all the frequencies down to 35 Hhz. When I am sitting with tweeter at ear level the M22s give great stage and depth. But I find I lose a bit of that standing up. The Silver S6 still keeps the stage and depth at a bigger sweet spot. The Silver S6 just seems to have a little more depth but not much. The M22 as mentioned by a lot of people are great little speakers. Remember we are comparing a $550 CDN speakers vs a $1250 CDN MA Silver S6. How many speakers can do that? What missing low level frequencies is th M22 the Silver S6 does have. When I listen to music I never use a sub. I like to hear the music the way it was meant to be heard (without any help from other devices). Two issues I noted though with the Silver line of products. First is the bass. It can be very unruly. In both the S6 or S8 the bass can get outta hand. I do not know if it has to do with the port. If they implemented a port design like the Axioms I think it might control the bass a little better. I am using port bungs today to control the bass. Maybe I am used to the British type sound (Dynaudio, Tannoy, PMC, Proac, Acoustic Energy) which is clean and clear (like the M22 Axioms) and lots oft lower mids bass heavy sounding (B&W, PSB, Bose, Paradigm Monitor & Active Series, JBL).
You also need higher power to make any of the Silver line sound better. Why? I don't know. Even my Rotel at 120W in 2 channel still doesn't sound the same when played with Bryston or Krells. When on those amps I seem to enjoy the speakers without the port bungs. Since I can not afford the other 2 I am opting for either the IRD or possibly the Outlaw. Even an article in UHF and Inner Ear and Stereophile has noted that for some reason it sounds better with tight high power amps. They even say it "sings" (thats relative though) like the big boys. And also the bigger the space the better the S6 will sound. The room in my new place that will house the speakers will be 16x12 by 17 feet high so I hope that is big enough for the S6. If you are planning to get any Monitor Audio and will be in a smaller room I suggest to only go for the GOLD Reference 10. For bigger rooms the Reference 20 or Silver line if you like bass.

Theses are the current speakers I am looking at for the future:

Bookshelf:
Dynaudio Contour 1.1
Proac Tablette 50 signature (if I can find em)
Revel Performa M20
PMC TB2
Monitor Audio GOLD Reference 20

Floorstanding:
Axiom M80
PMC FB1
Traingle Antal or Celius
Vandersteen 2C

Its interesting that i find your description of the Silver series very similar to that of the M60s, which is what i own (although i did audition the M22s as well).
The only exception is the bass part and maybe the wider soundstage. Never have i heard the M60s bass get out of control (it has always remained pretty tight) but certainly i found setting up the Axiom sweet spot a bit picky.
I was curious though about how similar these two speaker brands might sound since my brain has this impression that their components (metal tweeters, driver sizes) are really similar. From what i've read about Monitor Audio in reviews, they certainly come out very similar to Axioms (relatively tight bass, crisp highs, tight smooth mids, etc.). However the Axioms have always been also listed as notably bright whereas the Monitors have never had such a reputation or description, not that i've read.

I would love to hear some PMC (OB1 or IB2 series) as well as some higher end Tannoys (maybe Definition series). I have a feeling that Monitor Audio will produce too similar an Axiom sound and my wife is more enjoying the sound of my new Tannoy bookshelves for music. I really think the metal tweeters are great for maintaining linearity and clarity across the upper frequencies but i think her ears more prefer a slightly rolled off sound from fabric or soft dome tweeters.
Since the second system i'm building (next couple of years) will be for music only and most likely a 2 channel, possibly 4 channel setup at most, i would like to find something that is completely appealing to her ears since she listens to music more often than i do.
The Axioms will then get moved to the home theatre room (new house) and be pulling full time duty in that respect.

chess:

I would concur with you on the sound department M60 and MA Silver series would sound quite alike. The S6 has a little wider depth and stage than the M60 but not as good as a M80. M60 has definitely a tight bass and no where as ruly as the Silver S6 and I believe the S8 although has amazing stage and depth, the bass is even worse than the S6. But I only auditioned this in different rooms. My perception could have been skewed.

I also have not looked into the Tannoy series outside of there mini satelites (the one with steel grills) which seemed to have more detail than the Bose. The Tannoy, Celestions, Quad and Kastle are brands I want to audition but finding dealers that are close by are impossible.

As with you I agree that clarity and properties in metal type drivers. I am also looking for a fabric, syntetic or soft dome driver. To date IMO the best sounding speaker to my ears under $2000CDN is a Proac Tablette 50 Signature. And the tablette is no bigger than the M2Ti. It is even smaller I think. Maybe the setup was right when I was listening to it. It is clean, sweet, depth and stage is as good as like...ummm...B&W Nautalis series if you can believe it. Yes it lacks on the bass department(pair a musical sub) but the sound, clarity, definition....well if you know anyone (kinda rare) who has one give it a listen. Judge yourself. The new models of Proac's don't even touch it.

http://www.audioreview.com/Main+Speaker/ProAc+Tablette+50+Signature/PRD_120476_1594crx.aspx

I have not heard them, but you might also consider the Rocket line. They seem to have a huge following. Since they are only available on the internet, I don't know if anyone has had the opportunity to compare them to any of the brands you have mentioned, especially Axiom. That would be an interesting comparison, since they have a completely different type of tweeter than the Axiom.

Hey Chess those PMC models you are looking at arent cheap. I will be auditioning some PMC this week or next. TB2 or LB1.

DB1 $1595 CDN
TB2 $2000 CDN
LB1 $3295 CDN

One that really surprised me is this:

http://www.reference3a.com/mmdecapo.htm

I will have a chance to audiotion both in the same room. And since Reference3a is made in my backyard I believe I can get it at the same price in Canadian what they retail for in US.+ ~$300. Maybe with some hagling and "growing a sac" I can get it with taxes in.

Many some resident experts can critique on some scientific data captured in testing such as Cumulative Spectral Decay, impedance, etc

http://www.audioxpress.com/reviews/media/AX101DA.pdf


"Baby ribs baby ribs baby ribs. I want some ..." Fat Bastard

colesy,

I would suggest you also consider the Pioneer Elite 45TX, which sells for prices similar to the receivers you listed. I recently bought the 45TX despite some criticisms against the Pioneer receivers in this and other online forums. And I am a very happy owner so far; the more I play around with the receiver, the more I like it.

First and foremost, the MCACC technology is just great. It truly "improves" the response of your entire system, including the listening room – the forgotten component. The problem is that it is rather hard to imagine the benefits of the automatic EQ, unless you actually hear it at your own home. You really need to experience it to appreciate the technology.

Second, the Pioneer receivers have been criticized to run quite hot, but I do not really see that. After playing music and movies for several hours at quite high volume levels (-10dB to -6dB from the reference level), the top of the receiver's cabinet only gets to a bit warmer than the body temperature, probably around 100F. Sure I know there are other receivers/amps that run cooler (for one thing, my own Adcom power amp barely gets warm at all), but the Pioneer certainly does not get so hot that it starts to make me alarmed. It should be noted, though, that I do place the receiver so that it has a plenty of room above for heat dissipation.

Third, there have been user complaints that the Pioneer receivers occasionally shut itself down under 4-ohm loads, with less-than-crazy volume levels. Apparently, Pioneer has quietly addressed this problem (without ever acknowledging the issue publicly) and updated the receiver’s safety circuit and firmware, so the units manufactured in or after October, 2002 do not seem to have the problem. Currently, I am driving my 4-ohm Hales by the 45TX, and have never been able to get the Pioneer to shut-down so far, even by once listening at pretty insane volumes.

Forth, in relation to the above-mentioned points, the Pioneers have been generally criticized for the “lack of power reserve.” I do not know how these criticisms originated, but the actual measurements published by HiFi News (UK) seem to rebuke the criticisms completely (see here and here; VSX-D2011 is the European model number for the 45TX). According to the article, the 45TX had the best “regulation” among the models they compared when increasing number of channels are simultaneously driven – nearly 140W/ch of continuous power with 5 channels driven, a quite respectable number.

Finally, the sound quality... I am not one of those people who claim that you can readily hear the sound differences between today’s quality receivers/amps. However, I can say that the Pioneer’s noise floor is very low – for a line-level analog input selected, the receiver is just dead silent. The sound is, as you expect, just neutral – it does not seem to add or subtract anything from the sources (except for, of course, the equalization by the MCACC, and other surround “effects” when you select one of them) - which is all you need from a receiver.

Happy shopping!

So sushi,
it sounds like your Pioneer choice is working out ok then.
Perhaps Pioneer has started to revamp their receiver guts somewhat. I would still like to see their high end receivers get an official spec listed for playing 4 ohm speakers though.

I know PMC is not cheap but heck, are any tower speakers of decent quality ever really cheap?
My Axioms are a great bargain but i certainly cannot say my M60s were cheap per se.

I'm still leaning towards the Tannoy Definition D700s possibly for the future music system but auditioning is the key. If the Tannoys i have at present are any indication of a signature Tannoy sound, then i'm already halfway down a very satisfied road.
The fun part is trying to find some nice pre-pros and amps to drive such heavy sucking 4 ohm speakers.
Couple of names i'm perusing:
Mcintosh
Bryston
Threshold
Arcam
Musical Fidelity

Chess,
In my 2 channel system, I have the Odyssey Audio Stratos (150/ch) amp. You won't be able to find them in stores (only from Odyssey web site). This is a wonderful amp, IMHO. Like Axiom, there is a money back guarantee if you are not satisfied. Also like Axiom, the customer service is second to none. These amps are very clean and neutral sounding and built like a brick S*#thouse with a 20 year warranty. A fantastic value. It may be worth adding to your amp list. I haven't heard any of the amps that you mentioned but I'll bet that the Stratos will hold it's own (or perhaps even surpass) against any of them for a lot less money. I'm driving power hungry 4 ohm Magnepans with it and it never gets more than mildly warm to the touch. It also makes my Axiom M22s sing so sweetly. This amp does not sound tube like nor does it have any SS glare. Just a very smooth and free flowing and uncolored presentation. I beleive that they are selling for US $1071.00. I got mine with the 120 cap. upgrade - don't know if it make a difference over the stock amp because I've never had a stock amp to compare to. Checkum' out at audioreview.com. BTW, I'm useing an Anthem pre that I am very happy with.

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I would still like to see their high end receivers get an official spec listed for playing 4 ohm speakers though.

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Agreed! Not only the flagship 49TXi, but at least all the Elite lines...

i can second the odyssey brand-if you get a used one find the id numbers first and call klaus to make sure its a real one, a expartner of his sold amps with odyssey name and they arent built right, klaus wont work on them either.
theres a fake at audiogon right now for 725$(the ripoff jerk sold these for about 500$)
i love my odyssey mono blocks with extreme upgrade, i have 4ohm 89db speakers and they never break a sweat, oh man they sound good.

Did you see how old this thread is? I bet he bought the Denon.

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Did you see how old this thread is?

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LOL LOL What was I thinking about???
Anyway, the thread has been revived...

I guess it's ok considering the next holiday...