Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Jury's still out!!

Hi all,
You may recall my recent posts in here as I searched for the proper speaker solution--and other knowledge in my quest to build a home theater system. Well, my axiom M80's have arrived...and I hooked them up to my Denon 4802R which also arrived this evening. I didn't get a long listening period...so these are my first impressions. You can believe, I'll be doing my best to put these speakers through their paces this weekend. First, I wasn't blown away??? Should I be?? Admittedly, this was a throw together job...I came back from UPS this evening...and stripped some speaker cable...jammed it in the back of the denon, and likewise....inserted into the posts on the speakers...and tightened. Probably more telling is that I just took out my Toshiba DVD player...from my wife's system...to play some musical CD's.

The speakers sound good...quite bright actually.... no shortage of highs in my opinion...but....I don't know. I just wasn't blown away...like I want to be. Is it just too early?? Is it because the DVD is playing my music cd's?? Am I just looking for too much?? Do these speakers need a break-in period?? I don't have a sub hooked up yet...or the surrounds. Plan on getting an svs pb1 sub...ordering it tomorrow. I'm sure that will help, but I'm looking for a little more from the M80's. Should I be concerned??

I only cranked the volume to 1dB on the Denon -- max is 18, and haven't tweaked any setting on the Denon as of yet, but didn't think it was that loud...it was loud, but...also seemed to sound cluttered as the volume increased....something I don't want.

They are attractive speakers, and I really don't want to return them...especially considering I had to drive 2hrs round trip to pick them up from FedEx thanks to an addressing problem by FedEx!!

OK so I have the m60s...so not the same speakers but not too far off. But my immediate comment is that people say the m80s are very "fussy" in placement. You should spend a bit of time adjusting them in small increments and then listening at the sweet spot. You may find that just from a bit of adjusting they sound a lot better. Also, try to test them with a number of different cds. My m60s sound a bit bright on a few disks I have, but I've found that in those cases it is often the disks (sometimes even just a particular song, on a soudtrack for instance). I am impressed with the bass that my m60s put out when they're fed enough power, (although the are no match for a good sub and should supplemented with one) but the midrange blows me away on a good number of my cds.

You don't mention what material you used for your initial listening tests. My experience was that my M60's REALLY revealed how crappy some recordings sound. But, man, when you get a good one, the detail is just astounding. Give it some time.

Some random points:

Being initially a little disappointed is not an uncommon phenomenon. You start out with expectations so high, and get worked into a fever just waiting for them to arrive. It's difficult for any speaker to live up to all that.

The 80s have a reputation for being a little finicky regarding placement. Be sure to try a variety of positions before you judge. Sometimes just moving them a few inches will make a difference. If you have questions, ask away.

Once you have them in the position that seems optimum, be sure to calibrate your system with a Rat Shack meter.

After all that, give yourself a couple of weeks to become accustomed to their sound. Some will argue the speakers "break in," some will argue it is your brain that "breaks in." Regardless, relax, take some time. experiment, listen to a variety of music and movies, and reserve judgment for awhile.

Keep in mind that poorly mixed sources will sound.......well....... poor. Well mixed sources will astound you. Many music CDs, particularly those made from material originally mixed years ago, were mixed to be played through average speakers; small and lousy. Whatever they are, the Axioms aren't average.

Take a deep breath, relax, and give yourself and the Axioms a little time.

Good luck.

"Being blown away" is such an overused term. The exaggeration places suggestion into the mind (that bias i speak about so often) of new buyers so i'm not surprised when posts like this pop up. Several ppl have come back to the forums somewhat disappointed after their new speakers arrive b/c they were expecting more from reading so much hype.
I have to agree with Ajax (although several other good points were also made).

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Being initially a little disappointed is not an uncommon phenomenon. You start out with expectations so high, and get worked into a fever just waiting for them to arrive. It's difficult for any speaker to live up to all that.

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I posted my thoughts on this exact subject here quite some time ago.

I use that term, and I stand by it. The first time I heard Peter's M22s, I was blown away. Perhaps I have lower standards than others...

That said, I'll probably be disappointed with my speakers when I first set them up.

I got my M60's last month with the rest of my system and I too had high expections. I would say they did grow on me after a while. After hours of playing music, watching endless movies - they have set the standard for which I grade speakers. I think some of the previous poster's are correct in stating that it is the person that needs "breaking in" and not the speaker.

Although the 60's are different form the 80's, I am sure after a few weeks of usage, you will be very pleased.

First of all, the expectation of being "blown away" is a tough standard we set after reading these forums. We get ourselves into a frenzy about speakers that, in most cases, we have never heard. The risk there is that we may not understand what indeed is meant by clarity/detail. In most cases, our existing setups are on par w/ Best Buy or Circuit City specials and clarity/detail are NOT characteristics of them. So, we have trained minds to hear music that may be loud, but is probably muddy and less detailed. That being the case, experiencing that clarity and detail isn't always the big bang of an experience that we expected.....this is surely true if your source material is something poorly recorded, which brings me to my second point....

I have not posted my thoughts on this yet, but part of my Axiom order arrived last week (M22s & QS4s). I am waiting to post comments until after my M60s arrive and I have had time to compare. But, having had a few days to listen to my M22s w/ a sub, I can definitively state that source material DOES have a large play in this. You may be saying that all material should sound good on my speakers that I shelled out this $ for, but that's not necessarily the case. In buying a speaker known for it's clarity and detail, we have made a bit of a deal w/ the devil. We now have speakers that are going to give a magnificent enhanced experience w/ well-recorded music, but will also be shining a bad light on our poorly recorded music by bringing to the surface all of the imperfections in the recording.

In the end, I would agree with the other posters that suggest you give them and yourself a little time. But, in that time, I would strongly suggest you sift through your collection for the well-recorded material. In my case, I pulled out Children of Sanchez by Chuck Mangione......Good God!! is all I had to say after that.....the trombones and trumpets were almost mind-bending....you could almost visualize the guitar strings vibrating...the drums had so much punch...it was awesome.

Also, don't be afraid to give it some more juice. In hearing this much detail, I find myself cranking it much higher than I used to as I listen for those little nuances that I have never previously heard.

Good Luck

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I just wasn't blown away...like I want to be.

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Eightman - it's tough for any speaker to really blow someone away when your expectations are very high. In the end, they're speakers - very good ones - but they're not going to do away with air pollution, save the whales or expose the culprits and feed them to the children - to borrow some Bad Religion lyrics.

The upside is - if they don't blow you away now, they won't annoy you later.

They do blend in nicely and don't call attention to themselves. The only time I even notice my Axioms now is when I lay down on the couch with one ear under a QS4 woofer, I hear all the delay and phase games that way, but you can hardly blame Axiom's engineers for that - I've never read "mount one surround directly above your head firing directly at your right ear, the other surround 8 feet away, plug the other ear by pushing it against a pillow, cock your head towards the diagonally opposite main and throw a blanket over yourself for best audio experience"

Bren R.

Having just gone through a serious evaluation of the M60's, maybe my two cents worth will help. First of all, purchasing the M60's for a friend of mine just cost me more money than I thought. I'm replacing my existing BOSE 901s with the M60 + subwoofer combination ASAP. Perhaps saying I own BOSE 901s automatically disqualifies me from comment. All I can say is that I got them for $125 (I think even the worst BOSE basher will agree that they are a pretty good $125 speaker). Now as to your speakers. I'm hearing instruments in recordings that I never knew were there on the Axioms. I think a subwoofer is pretty much mandatory with any speaker that Axiom makes. In my experience, speakers that really make an impression are generally too bright our loud in some area, and that with time, will become uncomfortable. I currently own a pair of Quad Electrostatics. They are sitting out in the barn because I cannot afford to rebuild them. I mention this because when it comes to accurate sound, I think you will find electrostatics hard to beat if you can afford them, and can accept their limitations. I keep getting the feeling with the Axioms that I'm listening to the Quads (but with bass). My advice is hold back on judgment until you hook up the subs and listen to alot of music. You could do worse and spend more money.

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I've never read "mount one surround directly above your head firing directly at your right ear, the other surround 8 feet away, plug the other ear by pushing it against a pillow, cock your head towards the diagonally opposite main and throw a blanket over yourself for best audio experience"

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Isn't that a direct quote from the QS manual? Son of a gun! (Funny stuff, Bren )

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My advice is hold back on judgment until you hook up the subs and listen to alot of music. You could do worse and spend more money.

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Nicely said, Richard, and very true.

Hello all, these are excellent posts...and I want to respond to many of the points made, but don't have time right this second (I'm supposed to be working)... One things for sure...speakers or no...this is an excellent forum!!!!

I will take every bit of advice I've received here to heart and will be putting these speakers through their paces this weekend -- who knows if I even have a CD that could be considered a quality recording...but...we'll see. I'm actually surprised...noone balked at the fact that I was just listening to the CD through a run-of-the-mill toshiba DVD player...instead of a high end Denon 2900 or something similar.

Anyway...thanks all for the responses...they're outstanding!! I will update soon with further impressions -- and I should add, that I ordered the SVS PB1-ISD sub today... I bet that will fill things out.

One question -- someone mentioned calibrating (I have planned to do that, in fact had already purchased the digital spl meter from Rad Shack even before I received the speakers), but ...right now I'm auditioning with only the mains....is calibration of any kind really that important in that configuration???

Calibration isn't important if you're only listening to the M60s. But, when you add any other speaker (ie. a sub, a center, surrounds), it becomes important to balance them by calibrating.

I apologize if you're already aware of this, but I have no way of knowing your level of expertise, and I'd rather bug you with something you're already hip to, than omit something you're unaware of (so much for "never end a sentence with a prepostion" ). If you're listening to the M60s only, be sure that, in your receiver's speaker setup menu, the right and left mains (the M60s) are set to "Large." When you add the sub, you should probably set them to "Small," and be sure the sub setting is set to "yes," or "on."

One more thing to consider (and something you asked about) is the source player -- and how it's hooked up. Some may disagree, but I find my Toshiba DVD is not a great audio CD player when it's hooked up through the digital coaxial to my Yamaha receiver. There are technical explanations, but the bottom line is in A/B tests with my ancient Sony CD changer, the CD changer always gives a richer sound, without some of the brittle highs heard via the DVD.

I imagine the DVD player combined with placement problems with the M80s could be producing the bright highs you're hearing. When I got my M60s, I was blown away, but I also heard cymbals and clear highs that I had never heard before on my CDs. The new sounds were great, but they interacted with my room in ways that could sound harsh. The new awareness revealed some of the reflections in my listening room. This led me to add thick yet translucent curtains over two sliding glass doors, and even my sarcastic wife admits this made an improvement in the sound quality of the room. She loves the speakers, possibly more than she loves me (certainly true from time to time). Bottom line: The room adjustments tempered the highs (which were from the room, not the speakers ... or rather, resulted from the excellence of the speakers IN that room). Now, I still get a harsh kind of high on one CD out of the 300 in my collection -- Sam Phillips' Martinis and Bikinis. But I've never tried this CD on another system, so the mild harshness quite likely comes from the recording.

So tinker a bit before you give up on the M80s.

If you make these adjustments (including the placement deal -- make sure they are 8-10 ft apart and at least 18 inches from the wall, preferably 2 feet) and still aren't sure, try to borrow some towers from a friend, to help figure out the source of the sound issues -- whether it's the speakers or something else. People have sometimes voiced concern with highs on the M80s, and you can do a search on "capacitor" in this forum to learn what some have done to deal with it. So you're not the first person to be concerned.

Birdman

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I'm actually surprised...noone balked at the fact that I was just listening to the CD through a run-of-the-mill toshiba DVD player...instead of a high end Denon 2900 or something similar.

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Few schools of thought (and all are represented here) on CD-P quality:

-some suggest that a high-end player will give you better sound through both the digital out and analog outs - the rationale you'll have to ask them about - I'm not in this camp

-most here agree that once you take the DAC (digital to analog converter) out of the mix by hooking the CD-P up through the digital outs, a player is a player is a player, but that DACs affect the sound quality of the analog outs

-yet others believe anything that will spin and read a CD will sound the same across the board

Bren R.

I liked my M60s when I first heard them connected to my old equipment, but I was blown away by them when I bought new Denon stuff. OBVIOUS differences in clarity compared to the 1994 stuff. The '94 Onkyo CD player w/ analog outs sounded definitely warmer, but duller, than either my Denon DVD player or Sony mega-changer (both connected w/ digital outputs). 2002 Denon receiver DACs vs. 1994 Onkyo CD DACs???

eightmanvt

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One question -- someone mentioned calibrating (I have planned to do that, in fact had already purchased the digital spl meter from Rad Shack even before I received the speakers), but ...right now I'm auditioning with only the mains....is calibration of any kind really that important in that configuration???

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I think I have your answer. I had a brand new reciever and I hooked up my brand new M60s to it. I turned it on, and immediately had the same reaction. It turns out that my H/K 630 has all of the channel calibration settings at 0dB, the speakers set to small, and the delays set to like 6ft. I set both fronts to large (since I had no sub yet), and the channel adjustments to +5db, then set the distance to 11ft on the front delay settings. This immediately relieved my disappointment. I used an SPL later that night, and had to lower the left side to +4db to balance them out. They sound incredible now.

If you haven't changed ANY of the default settings on your AVR, then you can be pretty sure that almost all of them are wrong. DO NOT PANIC!

I have the M80's as well and I found in my case that a they needed a little bit of toe-in and that changed things signifigantly.

As well a good point was made about set up for the receiver. Perhaps the speakers are set to small which could remove a lot of the bass from the mix. Check the menu if you have the onscreen display hooked up via your TV.

Ok...here's an update regarding my impressions from listening this weekend...actually, I've cranked them every chance I've gotten -- using many different styles of music. I have really warmed to these speakers, although...I don't find them to be warm -- but they are especially clear...crystal clear ...really, and extremely neutral -- which is something I appreciate.

I did get a chance to tweak the Denon...and set the fronts to large...bumped up the bass a bit, and now that I put the surrounds up...am using the 5 ch setting... I have also experimented with many of the other signal processing settings, but need more tweaking time -- and all in all really appreciate the clarity of these speakers. They even handle bass quite well. For some reason...I keep feeling like I need to eq the system -- call it poor quality cds or what you will, I keep thinking that an eq could add that punch I'm looking for. That said, the speakers aren't to blame for that...rather most of my cd's don't have a lot... and I expect to improve drastically on that end with my svs subwoofer scheduled to arrive tommorrow. All in all I like these speakers. I've only listened to music so far...no HT...but am looking forward to that too...especially with the sub.

I really feel confident that I definitely got my money's worth...and then some...about the only other speakers in this price range...that I would have liked to audition would be the swans or the rockets... I have read that these are anything but neutral...

All in all I like my speakers...and that feeling is growing every day ... I'll let you know how the system sounds with the sub....

I have a feeling the sub will add that punch you're looking for.

Thanks for the update. We all had a feeling...