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#430103 - 09/23/18 10:57 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6176
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
One thing to keep in mind if you are running the M22's without center channel... if the center is below the TV then when it is on you will probably find the sound moves down compared to when you are running M22's only.

If you were running M80s with center and M22s without that would add another variable you probably want to keep out while you are making decisions.

If the M5HP vs M60HP question is for an HT system where the subs will always (or at least almost always) be used then I don't think you would hear much difference between M5 and M60 as long as they are set to "small".
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M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
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#430104 - 09/23/18 11:29 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5218
"...I don't think you would hear much difference between M5 and M60..."

Do the M5s image better than the M60s including depth, width and height?

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#430105 - 09/24/18 12:56 AM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
brendo Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 419
Loc: West coast Canada
The bookshelves could also benefit from the easier placement options, higher lower wider etc.

When I originally went from M22 to M80. I had gone through many different placements with my M22 in doing so it made the integration of going up to M80 so much easier. M80s still a little taller than all the placement of M22 before them.

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#430112 - 09/24/18 10:17 AM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: Mojo]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6176
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By Mojo
Do the M5s image better than the M60s including depth, width and height?

It's tough to say because (a) the listening position was better with the M5HP's in terms of relationship to ear height and (b) I was changing other things at the same time. My recollection was that even without things like DAC changes the imaging was a bit more precise with the M5's but it's hard to be sure from memory.

I'll try to dig up some of my long rambling posts and see if any useful information slipped in by mistake smile
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M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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#430114 - 09/24/18 01:44 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5218
Thanks, John.

I'd really like to know how The Family of Curves enhancements (that started with the research into the M100, LFRs and Brystons and ultimately made it into the entire M-series) has affected the soundstage. Everyone is looking for louder and cleaner and that's all good but I am looking for soundstage enhancements like improved imaging and deeper soundstage. It's frustrating that I want to upgrade but can't find the justification to do it. It doesn't appear there is a "standard" in audio for how to express soundstage quality.

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#430116 - 09/24/18 02:12 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: Mojo]
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6176
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By Mojo
It doesn't appear there is a "standard" in audio for how to express soundstage quality.

I think this is the core problem... no standard way to express it, no standard way to measure it, and as a consequence seemingly not much in terms of ability to translate it back into specific attributes of a speaker system.

There is a school of thought that things like time and phase coherence in physical design and/or crossover design have a big impact, but that has not been my experience... if anything I find them to have more impact on the sound of acoustic instruments in ways that can not necessarily be explained by frequency response alone.

My impression from talking to various speaker designers is that things like diffraction effects off the edges of the speaker cabinet (and even off the edges of the drivers themselves) can have as much or more effect on imaging and soundstage... but that's getting well off the end of my knowledge.
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M60ti, VP180, QS8, M2ti
M5HP, M40
LFR1100

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#430127 - 09/25/18 02:53 AM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: bridgman]
Ian Online   content
President
connoisseur

Registered: 03/13/01
Posts: 1240
For Troy to get the centre image higher up, a pair of on-wall M80s would work as they can be mounted at whatever height works for his room.
But the ultimate for soundstage presentation is the LFR series. For Troy the LFR1100s would also raise the image up. Besides making the sweetspot be everywhere in the room, there is an eerie detail to the positioning of everything. We have made the Listening Window curve and the Sound Power curve within a few dB of each other. This resulted in needing to make the Listening Window curve tilt slightly downward towards the higher frequencies and to lessen the tilt on the Sound Power curve. Since we have a DSP in the mix we have also been able to make these curves +/- 1 dB to target.
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#430130 - 09/25/18 10:06 AM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 5218
I still don't understand why Troy has this problem with M80s. The problem with on-walls is zero soundstage depth. I've moved the back of my 80v2 three feet from the front wall and I've been stunned with the improvement in depth. I want more though.

As for the LFR, the listening window and sound power responses are textbook! What an amazing journey Ian, to come from a time when you had to use pen and paper, passive components and loads of manual characterization just to deal with what are now mundane challenges to optimizing characteristics that were once the stuff of dreams.

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#430145 - 09/28/18 08:15 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: Mojo]
TroyD Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 613
Loc: Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, CA
I don't know
probably has something to do with the M80" are 39" tall and the middle of the botton tweeter and Midrange is 27" from floor.
Currently my M22 to the top is 45" and middle of tweeter and Mid range is 40"

Sitting in my chair my ears are 30" from floor
I am 10" from front of tv center
10'7" from the M22 L/R
They are wall mount on the FMB's
The image is about dead centre of my 65" tv
and seem to be floating about the front of the VP160.
I am currently in Stereo sound and I would swear if the front of the Pre/Pro was blanket out, I would swear it was the centre channel turned on.
I cannot get a better image

Connect up the M80 and frigg around for hour and the voices in Stereo I swear are at my knee height. it is like it is coming out from under the VP160.
The VP160 is on a home built stand with no bottom and the top is directly level with the bottom of my tv. The bottom of the VP160 is 20.5" off the floor bottom of my tv is 30" off the floor. Centre of the tv is 46" off floor.
I can play and raie up the M22 about 8 " and the image would be dead centre. But, just looks a bit wierd
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#430146 - 09/28/18 10:20 PM Re: M5HP vs M60HP [Re: TroyD]
Gr8_White_North Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/12/09
Posts: 2281
Loc: Whitehorse YT
Maybe the speakers are out of phase. try switching the positive and negative on one of the speakers.Also are you rerunning your room correction software when you switch out the speakers or is there no room corretion being used.


Edited by Gr8_White_North (09/28/18 10:21 PM)
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