Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Ordered M60, VP150, now thinking M5's and VP180...

As the subject states, I ordered some M60's over the weekend, also the VP 150. I realized, maybe to late, that there are Axiom forums and started reading up about the M5HP's and also read some bad reviews on the VP150. I am upgrading from M22Ti's for the fronts, VP100 for center and two M2i's for surrounds. Oh and the sub has been handled by a cheap Sony powered sub that will eventually get replaced. Obviously I am looking for better updated sound quality.

I have always felt like I have been missing something from the center channel. Voices have always seemed weak and always felt like i needed to raise the center channel volume to hear conversations. Generally, explosions and other sound effects usually seem fine volume wise. I thought the VP 150 was the next step but from what I have read in these forums, that's probably not a good idea. I thought about the VP160 but concerned about the height of the box.

I was going to go with the M60's because I have felt like the M22's were straining or like I had to turn the volume up to much to get the volume i thought i should be getting at that setting. The Denon AVR X2300 made that feeling worse so went back to a Sony and bought the STR DN-1080 which sounds much louder at lower volumes. Still, the M22Ti's have never really made me feel great about that purchase all those years ago and I have always wanted something bigger but at that time, I bought what I could afford and I was stationed in Japan and really didn't have the room for anything bigger. Now I have the room but frankly, the wife wasn't to happy about me getting the M60's and then I read about the M5HP's.

So.. advice time. Upgrading from M22Ti's, what am I gaining with the M5HP's? What would I gain with the M60's? What would I lose between the M5 VS the M60's?

Will running the VP180 hurt the receiver? If not, since it is 4 ohms, will I need to raise/lower the gain on the center to match the L/R volume?

Thanks for any help given.

A. Upgrading from M22Ti (yechhh! very offensive.) to any v4 (not on or in-wall or in-ceiling) will give you:

1. A holographic soundstage that allows you to hear height, width and depth

2. Clear imaging across the soundstage with lots of space between the instruments

The degree to which you achieve the above will depend on how well you can position your speakers and how good your room is. "Properly positioned" means placing the speakers at least a foot or two away from side walls, two feet or more from the back wall, a separation of a good six feet or more and forming an equilateral triangle with your listening position. "Good room" means at least reflecting side walls to allow the lateral reflections to reach your ears. The reflecting side walls will expand the width of the soundstage (the sense of spaciousness). Even better if you can put some absorption on your ceiling and front wall and absorption or diffusion on the back wall. The treatment will vastly improve image focus.

3. Crystal-clear, non-fatiguing, silky highs with lots of transparency and air that you absolutely must hear

4. A real nice "pop" to your lows and "snap" in the drums.

All of the above is a really big deal and really changes the game. The potential for all of this wasn't in version 2 (and likely not in the Ti). I don't know about version 3. Let's just say you will, like me, kick yourself for not upgrading earlier.

B. The 160v4 is fantastic. Unfortunately I suffered with the 150v2 for 11 freakin' years before I got the 160. The 180v4 is also excellent. I've heard it from all angles and distances and it works regardless what conventional wisdom says. Also consider a center that is the same as your mains if that will work for you. Now whether or not that Sony can power it is a different matter. Real specs on that Sony aren't available.

C. M5HPs vs. M60s:

1. The M5HPs are not bookshelves. First, they're way too big. Second, putting them on a table or in/on a shelf would be a bloody great way to diminish their sound quality! You will need stands.

2. The M60s will give you a bit more bass, they are marginally less power hungry and they're a bit more linear.

3. The M5HPs may image better in your room due to a smaller driver complement.

4. The M60s will be marginally easier to drive.

I have M5HPs and you can read my posts on how amazing they sound in my 4,200 ft^3 space. I am driving them with an Onk that bests your Sony. I will say they take about 5dB more power to reach the same SPL as my previous M80v2. I have to sometimes turn them up to -5 to -10 whereas with my M80v2, I never had to go above -10. Most of the time though, I listen to between -12 to -15. I watched Hyena Road earlier today at -17 (a couple of Watts) on Netflix and it was great!

Thanks Mojo! You were one of the main contributors to me maybe deciding on the M5's.

The M22Ti's are currently my mains and would be replaced by the M5's or the M60's. I will be getting stands for the M5's if I go that route.

The room they would be going into is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination. One side opens into the kitchen and the other side the speakers would be pretty much right up against the wall.There is about 7' separation between the M22's but they are backed up against the back wall. They could be pulled up away from the wall a little but due to a couch on the kitchen side, I wouldn't be able to pull them forward by much or there wouldn't be much room to walk by.

Eventually, we will be renovating the house and setting things up a bit better for a much nicer HT experience. We actually have a "Great room" that would be perfect for the ultimate HT experience but, the sound would travel through every room in the house especially upstairs and the wife would not be very happy.

Not overly concerned about bass to be honest. The M22's don't put out shit for base and the little Sony powered bass speaker does a decent job. I will eventually get an EP350 and I would assume the M5 or M60 would put out noticeably more base than the M22Ti anyway.

Hopefully I caught the team early enough to change my order, if they let me. I ordered from the factory outlet with the black Friday deal over the weekend. Received a progress email around 2PM and sent an email to them this afternoon to not ship as I wanted to maybe change my order. Crossing my fingers.

Hi Dragbug,

It will not be a problem to change your order. I would suggest staying with the M60s though and just changing the centre channel to a VP180. The M60s are very similar to the M5HP in overall performance but they will give you more output per watt and deeper bass as they have more cabinet volume.

Your room sounds small. Even though it's open to the rest of the house, it will still get very loud with the M5s. I know because I put the M5s in my living room which is open to the rest of the house and drove them with my 17 year old Denon.

The low end from the M5s is very nice. It's not as deep as my old M80v2 but it's much better to listen to. So is the midrange. And the highs. And the soundstage. And the imaging. M5s over M80v2 any day! When you hear them, you'll hang yourself from the rafters for torturing your ear-brain system all these years. LOL!

You won't need that sub or maybe you can set the speakers as large and move the sub to a location that smoothens out the bass for the entire room. My Onk found the M5s go down to 40 Hz in my large space. I'd turn off my 800v4 and let my friends listen to music and movies and there were no complaints at all. Of course when I turned on the 800 they realized what they were missing...heh heh.

Regardless of which you decide on, foam plugs for the ports may be in your future since they'll be sitting close to the front wall. Axiom has custom ones that fit the speaker sphincters. Toeing in the speakers may also help with the bass. I've found because they are so dispersive, toe-in doesn't negatively impact imaging and may improve it depending on your room geometry.

Good luck with that room. I have the same problem in my living room with M3s (not the M3s' fault). Your Sony likely has some kind of room correction, which I don't have, so that will help.

Thanks Ian and Mojo. Looks like I did catch them in time. I received an email this morning. Ian, looks like the email I received also suggested upgrading to the VP180 and keeping the M60. My only concern now is the price point difference between the VP150 and the VP180. When I was deciding between the M60 and the M5, the price difference helped offset the price difference between the center channels and sounded like I was getting pretty much the same quality sounding mains. I won't be able to afford the extra cost of just upgrading to the VP180, the price difference is just to great and the wife wasn't all that happy about the purchase in the first place lol. Normally, she wouldn't care but I was on a spending spree this season.

Have a look at the B-stock 180s. Not sure the finish will work for you.

https://www.axiomaudio.com/deals/b-stock

Thanks Mojo, I did see them and yes, those finishes are the ones I would absolutely pick. When I made my current order, I did it under the Black Friday deal. I don't know if they can apply the Black Friday deal to the B-stock items but I replied back to the email from Axiom to inquire.

Well good news. Sounds like Axiom is going out of their way to do the best they can to try and help me upgrade to the VP180 and stick with the M60's. The more I think about it, the more I think I will be happier with the M60 and VP180 combo. Ian helped when he said "more output per watt" for the M60 although Mojo certainly made a good argument for the M5. We will see what they come up with. Thanks for the help guys!

That's terrific! All Ian ultimately wants out of listeners is to experience a heightened emotion when they hear his gear. You're gonna be grinning from ear to ear when you get everything set up.

I'm a little late to the party, but I am super happy with my M60 & VP180 combo for up front. I used to have the VP150, but the 180 is amazingly better.

Sounds like it. I am willing to bet that just by changing to V4 of the M22 and VP100 I would probably be amazed. I can't believe how much has changed since my original purchase. Upgrading to the M60 and VP180 should just about knock my socks off. I don't want to get too excited yet until I hear back from Debbie but she sounded pretty confident she could get me a fair deal on the upgrade.

nickbuol,

Glad to hear! If this works out, I will just have to upgrade the M2i's that I am using for surrounds. They have actually worked fairly well over the years but with the massive upgrade on the fronts...I can see the surrounds needing attention soon. Unfortunately, I am trading in the M22Ti's so won't be able to use those as surrounds.

Debbie and Ian go out of their way to please existing clients. Upgrading to the VP180 from the VP150 has been fantastic. Upgrading to the EP500 from the EP175 was surreal.

My next purchase is likely going to be either M100s or maybe even LFR1100s to replace my beloved Totems. I'm hoping to be able to drop in on Axiom again in July with "the boys" for a listening session :-)

Pablito, I'm gonna have them long before you, dude(tte?).

It's funny. I got home last night and told my wife about my conversation with Debbie. She was surprised at how nice the company was especially with some of the pain I had gone through with some companies in the past with other unrelated products just trying to get warranty coverage.

Then my wife almost gave me a heart attack. I was turning around to head upstairs to go change out of my work cloths and she said "what about these other speakers"? I stopped and asked her what other speakers and she pointed to the M2's. I was puzzled at first but asked her what about them. She said that since I was going to be getting new front speakers, won't these back ones need to be new too?

I can't tell you all the things my brain started telling my mouth to say right at that moment...instead I stared at her in silence wondering if I was being led into a trap. I think she realized I was afraid to say something and she finally said that she knows we really didn't have the budget for new back speakers but she knew I wanted to replace them and the new speakers were going to be way bigger then the back ones and it made sense to replace them now too.

Needless to say, I told her no. For one, we really don't have the budget or I would have bought the M80 and VP180 with the EP800 and some new surrounds in the first place Number two, it's a trap! She wants something, I know it!

Take the bait, upgrade to M5s and deal with her ask later. 😁

Axiom is terrific to deal with.

M5's for surrounds?

Yeah. Why not? Your name is on a pair at the factory.

You are certainly the poster child for the M5 lol. Umm, personally, I think the M5 might be a little overkill for surrounds. At least in my house. Way to big physically in the area I would have available to put them anyway. I was thinking more like the QS4 or 8 or maybe the M3 even. I actually have 4 M2i's I could trade in but like I told my wife, not budgeted for it right now and still trying to work out trying to get the M60 and the VP180. Have not heard back from Debbie yet on those. One step at a time grasshopper

I had four QS8s. They were 12 feet away for sides and rears. They are puny. I traded all four of them in for two QS10s for sides. I dont even miss the rears. They are soooo much better. I was missing so much. My Onk found them at 40 Hz (like my M5s and 160) and that's where I've kept them. I'd really like to trade them in for QS14s though. M3s are also a good choice but if you choose to mount them close to a wall, you may need to plug their sphincters. On wall would be a good choice also.

Yeah, I love the M5s. I love them so much that they'll have big brother M100s to look out for them in about two weeks time.

Keep in mind that I am currently using two M2i's for surrounds. I used to run a 7.1 when I was stationed in Japan but the current room I am in now doesn't allow for the additional two back placements so only running a 5.1. With the M22Ti's, VP100 and the M2i's, sound has been acceptable for all of these years but my hearing has declined and of course have decided to upgrade. Adding the M60's and the VP180 will substantially improve front sound stage. I would think, any upgrade to the surrounds at this point, even if just upgrading to M2V4, would be an improvement. Honestly, I am not looking for blow my head off sound lol. Just more volume and and great quality sound.

Maybe before sending the M22s back, try them out as surrounds.

Just talked to Debbie this morning and it's a go on the M60's and the VP180! I feel like I got a great deal and a huge upgrade. Can't wait to hear the difference the larger and more modern speakers are going to sound!

Curious, does anyone know how the trade-up works? I will be sending in the M22's and the VP100. I have heard nothing from Axiom about when I send them or how I will need to send them. Do I need to send them in before the new speakers ship or in a certain amount of time after I receive the new speakers? Will they send shipping boxes for the speakers to ship back in?

The great thing about this is that you don't need to send anything back right away. You can put the old crap you're listening to side-by-side with the new gear and hear what you've been missing all these years...LOL! As for the shipping boxes, you can use the boxes from the new gear to pack the old gear. Use one box for each piece though and stuff lots of newspaper in there. Deb says it works better than bubble wrap. Confirm all this with Deb though before you start packing. She may want to send you new shipping boxes. You may want to wait a while because I'm sure they're going out of their minds over there right now fulfilling Black Friday orders.

Awesome, thanks Mojo! Guess that means I get a chance to hear how the M22's would sound as surrounds after all

Yeah, isn't it great? And Debbie treated you like her long-lost child.

I use my M22 as front height they are wonderfully massive in that config. My soundstage is huge. Well past the limits of the walls roughly 2 or 3 feet away.

Brendo, how did you do that? I have a massively wide, deep and tall soundstage but it's only 22 feet wide which is the limit of my walls.

I made some acoustic panels, The thickest ROXUL in wood box with decorative fabric. Made a huge diff. with my soundstage.

The actual width of my living room is similar 24 odd feet. open to the rest of my suite on the left. With 17 feet of window on right So I guess it's only so wide. Still a wonderful wall of sound.

I did something quite similar but I left my side walls completely reflective. It made a big difference but my soundstage doesn't extend beyond the wall boundaries. I'm not complaining.

Just out of sheer curiosity, how does one measure a soundstage?

Oh and btw, a friend of mine bought the Denon AVR-X6500 and liked it so much that he decided he wanted the same thing with more power so he was going to buy the 8500. I convinced him to let me "borrow" the 6500 for a bit to test out my new speakers (which arrive today according to FedEx). He still bought the 8500 but has until Jan 12th to return the 6500 I guess due to special holiday return policies.

Not sure if this will be a good idea or not though. I had/have the Denon 2300 and absolutely hated it which is why I bought the Sony STR-DN 1080 which really woke up my current speakers. The 2300 sounded fine but felt so low on power compared to the Sony it replaced (I think it was the 1050). So now I will either hate the Denon 6500 or love it and can't afford it lol.

Soundstage has dimensions of width, depth and height. If you have your v4 set up properly in relation to your MLP and your room is "right", the width should extend beyond the speaker width. The depth starts from the front of your speakers all the way to your front wall or beyond even. With well-recorded material, that depth is composed of layers or parallel planes from front-to-back. Height is measured from the floor to the ceiling and with well-recorded material, you can hear voices/instruments at various heights. I had none of this with my M80 v2.

In Sade's The Sweetest Taboo, the rain is 5 feet behind the front of my M5s. It's a sheet of water covering my front wall. Maybe with a better room and better speakers (?) that depth would extend beyond my front wall. In Belkis, Queen of Sheba: War Dance, the drums at the beginning are at the far left, beyond the width of my M5, wayyyyy back there in the depth of the soundstage and a quarter of the way up to my ceiling. Anything by Trilok Gurtu is layers upon layers for front-to-back soundstage. It's like you can reach out and touch each layer.

Then there's imaging. Instruments in most well-recorded tracks with the v4 are very well-defined and there is lots of space/silence between them. With the v2, the images were fuzzy and piled on top of each other. St. Louis Blues by Wycliffe Gordon is absolutely spectacular and seductive and is a good example of what very good speakers placed well in a good room with good EQ can do.

The above is all 2.1.

There is no difference in audio quality between the 6500 and the 8500. You should definitely be able to hear a difference between the 6500 and your Sony if you calibrate your room using Denon's Audyssey. If a receiver doesn't have XT 32 or equivalent, I stay away from it. I can't say enough about my Onk and its implementation of XT 32.

I don't know what you look like but I have this visual of someone crawling around a room, going up the walls, on the ceiling and the floor measuring with a tape measure to find out where the sound starts and stops. Frankly it's disturbing....lol

Not sure my friend was concerned about the audio quality. He was pleased with the 6500. Pretty sure he just wanted the 8500 for the 13.2 channel capability

The Denon 2300 I have has the Audyssey XT, not the XT32. Like i said, it felt less powerful then the older Sony I was using and occasionally, it sounded like sounds were being dropped from the center channel. Like someone was talking from a distance but they were actually right there. Never could figure it out. Could not wait to get rid of that thing.

That's why the 1080 was purchased. But then I found out that there is no expand ability for the 1080, no preouts. And it doesn't upscale 1080P/60 to 4K! So I might take it back if the 6500 doesn't piss me off like the 2300 did.

It's even worse than you imagine

After the second or third round of experimentation with room arrangement you end up with all the room dimensions memorized, so all you have to do is point at where the sounds are coming from and the numbers pop into your head.

In my room, the M3v4 and M5 both paint images in a 3d space from front to back. The M3v4 images are 720p and the M5 are 1080p. Maybe the soon-to-arrive M100v4 will be 4K.

I was describing this to a guy at work and he says it's not right. It's fake and shouldn't sound that way. He says it doesn't sound that way at a bar, at a rock concert or at a concert hall.

For those who enjoy their presentation like this guy, my v2 will be in the refurb store soon. Please be my guest. Me on the other hand...I don't care what it's supposed to sound like. I care about how it makes me feel; it's about the emotion. Having said that, I'm pretty damned sure the way I'm hearing it is how the engineer intended. The Eric Clapton Unplugged concert was a nightmare on v2. On v4, the images are exactly where I'd expect them to be. It's a whole different illusion and it is spectacularly and eerily better.

I expect fully active LFRs to be 8K.

Well I have good and bad news. I got my speakers in this evening and wired them up. The sound volume was much better at the same setting then with the previous speakers. Voices were so much clearer. I was very excited and convinced the wife to let me put in a movie to really test them out. I put in Avengers Infinity War and that's when I heard the unmistakable sound of distortion coming from the bottom 6 1/2 speaker of one of the M60's. Is it possible a wire came loose? Will I void a warranty if I pull the speaker to check? I know that sometimes shit can happen but did I really get a defective speaker? I am sooooo sad right now.

EDIT: Not a loose or crossed wire. You can feel friction on the cone when you lightly press on the speaker. It's a bad speaker What are the odds? I am so bummed right now.

Deb will fix you up with a new one. I bet it still sounds better than that old M22.

lol well, aside from the distortion sure it does Any idea if the wires are soldered to the speaker posts or just clipped? I can't turn it up to any real volume without it distorting. Might have to hook the M22's back up until it's resolved. Probably won't hear back from Deb until Monday at least.

They are spade terminals and they're keyed so you can't connect them wrong. The bad driver will not affect the imaging and soundstage. Just disconnect one terminal to take it out of the circuit, put the driver back and enjoy until you get another one. Check all other drivers and the 180 in the meantime.

Thanks, I was hoping I could just disconnect that single speaker. Seems a waste to not be able to enjoy the rest of the system for one speaker. I did check the rest of the drivers and the 180 they sound just fine from what I can tell. I will disconnect the bad driver and check again but pretty sure I only have the one. Everything else sounded pretty damn sweet the short time i was playing the movie.

This is a helluva on opportunity for you. If you disconnect one of the woofers on the other 60, you can hear what an M5 sounds like...sort of.

BTW, if you disconnect the tweeters, that's what a Bose 601 Series III sounds like!

Your friend is sort of right... it is fake in the sense that recording engineers put a lot of work into making it sound like that... but it *is* what the album is supposed to sound like.

The fact that it doesn't usually sound that way in a bar or rock concert or concert hall (without the audio processing) is kind of irrelevant... although anyone who has heard ELP performing Tank live (or Heart / Mistral Wind, or any of a bunch of other examples) knows that sometimes it *does* sound just like that in the concert hall.

Agreed. This is why I now choose my live performances carefully. An acoustic jazz performance in a dark, intimate Boston nightclub 5 years ago taught me that sound can have depth in layers. v4 gives me that.

BTW, are LFRs 8K?

Don't know yet... I was out of town last week and split this week between digging out and being off sick. Hoping to pick them up next week.

Looking around at my living room thinking it is going to be the weak link... probably time to move some equipment downstairs and see if I can do better there, with actual walls rather than just windows.

I still plan to set up the LFR's in the living room first to get a decent comparison against existing speakers though.

Living rooms are a nightmare. They are no place for speakers of any kind. Listening to road noise provides more pleasure.

lol wouldn't I need to have gotten the high powered version to get the sound of the M5?

The HP driver is more linear than the standard driver when it's cranked. "Cranked" has never been defined by Axiom but I'd say you're not likely to exceed 50 Watts average for your listening. That's 20% of the designed average which should be well under "cranked".

IMO the HP driver should be targeted at gamers and war movie buffs.
I love mine.

The single HP driver in my M5HP sounds better than the driver in the M3v4 and M80v2 at all listening levels.

I had a bum driver when I got my M22v.4.
Just contact them and they'll fix you up really fast. The drivers are an easy replacement just be sure to make sure that's the only one.

I've checked the other drivers so far and they all seem to be ok sounding to my untuned ears. My ears are only able to detect distorted sounds or no sounds lol. Everything else sounds great though. I haven't borrowed the Denon 6500 yet so still using the Sony 1080 and it honestly sounds pretty good. The VP180 has really shown me how much I have been missing on the vocal front.

Actually, if you listen up close to any driver, it should sound like total garbage. When you move further away, that's when the magic starts.

I felt the same way about the VP160v4 when I moved away from the VP150v2. And the M5s. And the QS10s. And the EP800v4. LOL!

When you get the Denon, make sure you run at least the 3-point Audyssey XT32 calibration. Or maybe you shouldn't because you may never be able to go back to your Sony.

"Cranked" has been universally defined as turning it up to 11. No need for Axiom to define it further.

Deb is going to send a new driver for me to replace the bad one in the M60. I will borrow the Denon then and run the Audyssey calibration.

Speaking of, every single one of those calibration programs sets my speakers to large. And that includes the M22's. I have always manually set the M22's and the VP100 to small and 80 hz for obvious reasons but now that I have the M60 and the VP180, should those be set to large or or small?

11? What is "it" and how do you know when you are at "11"?

As a rule of thumb everyone recommends small setting. Then letting the sub or subs handle the bass. Allaround better for your AVR not to need really high Wattage.

Brendan

I have an 11. It's 22 x 0.5dB increments above 0 on my Onk. It sounds like garbage because it pushes my Onk into clipping.

Like Brendo said...set to small.

My M60's and VP180 are set to small. Probably still 80Hz crossover but IIRC the previous VP100 was the limiting factor for going lower.

That reminds me of something that irritated me about the Denon X2300 I had. The volume increased/decreased in .5 increments. Any idea if the newer ones still do that? Feel like I am talking myself out of the Denon receivers, and maybe I am. I know they are supposed to be really good quality but the one experience I have had with them so far (x2300) was painfully dreadful compared to the Sony's (1050 and now the 1080). I just know my 1080 can't really be upgraded and can't really compare to receivers like the 6500 and now that I have these better speakers, I want to be able to really take advantage of them and I know this Sony can only do so much. Well, bright side, if the 6500 bugs me, I can just give it back to my friend lol.

Thanks for the help guys. I will keep them set to little then. That's what I thought I read in the past but couldn't remember for sure.

Setting your mains to small seems to be quite common, more so if you're only using an AVR to power everything. When I run Audyssey, it sets my fronts to large, which I tend to agree with since I'm running separates for all channels (300wpc). The AVR only has to worry about processing. IMO, the benefit of running your fronts large are evening out the bass...also seems pointless to buy large towers and big centers that are capable of (near) full range, only to neuter their bass. I do agree however, that if you're only powering with your AVR, it's probably better to let the sub (amp) do the heavy lifting on the bass.

As a side note, I believe Ian's preference is to run "large" on the fronts.

Sorry, it was a Spinal Tap reference joke. ;-p

"I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything." -- David St. Hubbins

Audyssey XT32 finds the low frequency cut-offs of my M5s, VP160v4 and QS10s to be 40Hz. I find I get the best music and movie performance when I set the M5s to 80Hz and leave the rest at 40Hz. This is by no means a knock on the M5s.

Dragbug, I suggest you play with your room layout and settings. If you want to see what the M60v4 speaker is capable of, you need to have them spaced at least 6' apart and as far away from room boundaries as possible (I have my M5s 12.5 feet apart, 4 feet from the front wall and 5 feet from sides). Even if this ends up being impractical for your room, at least it temporarily gives you a sense of their soundstage and imaging capability.

My bet is that if you run the Audyssey XT32 calibration on the Denon, you will want to keep it. You can do a 3-point calibration around your main listening position and that's good enough. Put the mic at the center of where your head rests, then the left ear and then the right.

You may not want to do any of the above because it it sounds magical and you can't make it permanent, you'll be forever haunted by it. One of my buddies has my old Bose 601 Series III and when I placed them properly yet impractically in his room, he was completely blown away. Now he's constantly arguing with his wife about leaving them there permanently. Audio is often not good for relationships.

Lol it's not impractical, it's impossible due to limitations of the room it's self.

The fronts are 6 ft apart and about a foot from the front wall. The right is only about 6-8 inchs from the side wall though. The left is about 3-4 ft from a wall. I almost had the wife convinced to let me move our living room to the "great room" or family room or what ever they call those large rooms that no one ever uses.

Problem with that room is that is has 18 ft high ceiling with a stairwell that leads upstairs to an open hallway and open loft area. Not sure how well that area will sound and no place to setup ATMOS.

Eventually, we plan to open the kitchen dining area and living area and my plan was to make sure that home theater is part of that future plan. So right now, I have to make the best of a bad situation I guess lol.

When you say 3 point, I assume you are referring to the 3rd step in the calibration process? I didn't know you could stop at any point in the process. I thought it would not calibrate very if you stopped early. It always goes to behind the couch which I can't do because the couch is almost right up against the wall.

My Onk allows me to select between a 3 or 8 point calibration. I thought perhaps Denon allows that too.

Yeah...thats what I thought about your room. It's too bad really. You can never possibly know what those v4 M60s are capable of. Unless of course you temporarily place them in the great room...heh heh...I'm evil!

Maybe the 6500 has that option. I don't think the 2300 did, at least I never saw that as an option but then it had only the basic Audyssey XT not the XT 32, if that even makes any difference.

I spent an hour last night using a measuring tape to get my speakers perfectly symmetrical to the center of my couch. I am not moving them again And yes, they are pointing at the center listening position, not facing forward toward the wall

XT32 and XT are like apples and oranges. The difference in my room is very noticeable.

It would really bother me to not know what the true capability of my speakers is. Just sayin'... :p

Looks like I am going to be waiting a bit longer anyway. My friend ordered the Denon 8500 several days ago and got it this afternoon. It was DOA. I think his luck is as bad as mine. So until he gets a replacement, he will obviously keep using the 6500.

I think if I tested the true capability of these speakers, my wife might leave me lol. There are just some things a speaker can't do.

Did he check the fuse?

Hmm is there a fuse? I will check with him.

My bad, doesn't appear to have one from the images online.

If there is a fuse, it's likely not accessible without lifting the top cover. Try pressing the power button for 5 seconds and watch what the LCD panel says (if anything).

I downloaded the manual online and didn't see any reference to a fuse so if there is, it's not meant to be user accessible.

The troubleshooter says "This unit’s amplifier circuit has failed. Unplug the power cord and contact our customer service center" based on how my friend described how the receiver was acting when he turned it on. He already contacted the place he got it from and they are sending him a replacement and a return shipping label. And so the waiting game continues. Still waiting for the replacement driver for my M60 anyway.

Dragbug, can you describe what you hear through the M60s in 2.0 or 2.1?

You referring to the bad driver? If so, it's a blown voice coil. Back in the day I used to run a lot of high end car audio and would run into bad voice coils. That's exactly how this driver sounds and feels when you lightly push in on it. Lots of distortion and resistance with grinding when you push in on the driver.

I am a bit surprised to receive a new speaker with an already blown voice coil though. I have only blown voice coils when over driven or if there was a power spike. Never had one new in the box. Although I don't know if Axiom tests each driver before shipping. Perhaps something happened during testing.

If the bad driver wasn't what you were referring to, my bad....

I know what a blown driver sounds like. It doesn't sound at all.

I'm wondering what your listening impressions are.

The way you guys talk, I would be more like a bull in a china shop trying to explain what I hear. Right now, All I have done so far is hook up the speakers to the Sony 1080. I have not even rerun the calibration yet and i can tell you that they sound better. Much better then the M22's. More volume, more clarity. I wanted to wait to get the replacement driver before I run the calibration. PLus I really want to see how the Denon 6500 really brings out the new speakers.

Yeah...the clarity and volume is definitely immediately obvious.

Initially, I never bothered to re-calibrate when I replaced the M80v2 with M3v4 and M5HP. I could immediately hear the differences I reported. I am just curious if you hear what I heard in your less-than-ideal setup.

I know the calibration currently is less than ideal for these speakers and I think the Sony is struggling with the different ohms of the VP180 and the M60. The M60 are light in volume compared to the VP180. But then, the VP180 puts out a lot more volume than the VP100 did so I think it is over powering the M60's right now. Even though the M60's are putting out more volume than the M22's, I don't think it's as much of a difference volume wise as it was between the VP100 and the VP180.

I was reading the manual for the Denon 6500 and I know is specifically said that if even one speaker was 4 ohms and the rest were 8 ohms, that you needed to set the receiver to run at 4 ohms. The Sony doesn't really say anything. I don't know if that would have any effect on the VP180 or M60 output either.

Don't set it to 4 Ohms! It will reduce the voltage and hence the available power to the speakers. Once you calibrate, it will all sound fine.

Going back to soundstage (I think this is the right thread :)) I wanted to mention that last night I moved a bunch of stuff (mostly other speakers) out from between the M5HP's and noticed a significant improvement in the "sharpness" and even-ness of the different sounds/instruments/voices across the soundstage.

Not necessarily any larger (everything I played was pretty conventionally mixed so sounds appeared mostly between the speakers rather than outside them) but the location of sounds was definitely more clear.

Seemed to be a bit more vertical spread between sounds, although it's still not clear how that would actually work other than higher frequency sounds appearing a bit higher physically because relatively more of the sound is coming from drivers mounted further up the front panel.

Anyways, I think I'm going to set up a reminder message to myself telling me to take all the accumulated crap out of the speaker area every month or so.

You gotta stop sabotaging your sound, John. Get all that sh!t outta there. Your room should have only two speakers, a chair and a brain in it.

As for the height, I too have no clue how it's done but I do know it has nothing to do with the relative height of the drivers. I've heard trumpets with the v4 that are way in the back corner 5' high and others that are more forward, higher up and left or right of centre. I never heard placement like that with v2.

I think it's his brain in the room that is causing the problem.
In some new future, he'll have all the stuff including the speakers moved out of the room and finally have his perfect soundstage only to realize something is still missing...like sound....

Damn, you are so right...and smart too! You must be from The 'Peg.

What would we call it... "quietstage" ?

I've been dreaming of starting a company called ZEROEAR. I want to by-pass the sterecilia and connect directly to the nerve fibers. The problem is, we really don't understand how the brain fuses electrical signals from the stereocilia. Investors don't want to fund science projects.

No one is dumb enough to admit such an atrocity.

Yes, also known as "The Bridgman Art of Glorious Sound" or TBAGS because everyone loves more acronyms.

Ahhhhhh! Intelligent conversation like the good ol' days.

Speaking of soundstage, can the feet be removed from the VP180? The place I have it right now, there is a bar that doesn't block the speakers really but, I think might be blocking the sound a little as I noticed the sound is different than when I tested the speaker before I stuffed it under the TV. It's basically in the same place that the VP100 was but moved slightly back because it sits so much higher that the bar makes it sit further back.