Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Deciding between M60 and M80

Hello, I am currently looking for some advice and help deciding between the M60 and M80 towers my main usage will be 75percent music and 25percent theater. That being said my room is quite small at 250sqft but also I do love my music fairly loud like 95-100db every so often. My question is would I be better off with the M60's or should I go big and get the M80's?

yes they will be powered with an amp giving aprox 200 watts per side.

Thank you in advance for the help

How far away will you be sitting from the speakers?

200W ok. What amp?

Is that 95dB to 100dB peak or nominal?

Is your room live, dead or in between?

With sub or without?

Thanks for responding Mojo,

It is a Axiom Ada1250 amp

it is usually 95 to 100db nominal so basically continuously

I will be sitting about 12 feet away from the speakers

living room is in between dead and alive

and yes I have a svs pb-4000 subwoofer

You need 32W continuous for your average listening level of 100dB with 93dB/W speakers.

If you want to hit 17dB peaks above your 100dB average, you're looking at 2048W peaks.

An M80 can't handle 2048W peaks without compressing according to the specs. An M100 can handle up to 2400W.

An ADA-1250 can't produce 2048W peaks; only up to 1350W. The ADA-1500 can produce 1950W so that's pretty close.

This suggests you need an M100 and an ADA-1500.

But hold on...there's the sub. Unless you're listening to just flutes at 100dB :), the sub should be doing some of the work. How much of the work depends on where you're crossing over and how much content is below the cross-over frequency.

I would say you are safe with the M80 and ADA-1250. If it falls short, you can always move up from there by trading in. Then there's always the question of whether or not you should be getting HP drivers which I'd say likely given your listening habits. That then easily pushes you into M100 territory and you can get those for a pretty sweet deal in B stock.

I have M100s and they are terrific! I also have M5s and M3s which are also great but certainly not for you.

Okay that makes complete sense Mojo, I think what my problem is that I am moving from Cerwin Vega Ls-12's which were very bassy but lack any clearity at all and still want to achieve the levels that they could hit. I want to give Axiom a try because I have heard amazing things about how clear they are and how accurate they produce sound. I couldn't care less about how low the speakers can get because that is what the subwoofer is for but as far as crossover setting I will be crossing over at 60-80hz

Your current speakers can only handle 300W peaks. That's measly compared to the 600W continuous/2400W peak rating of the M100s. They also cannot compare to the M100s when it comes to microdynamics, clarity and immaculate soundstage. The soundstage with any Axiom v4 speaker is holographic when properly placed in a room. They are in a completely different class than the CV. The Axioms will open up a completely different world for you.

Perfect thats exactly what I am looking for, I need something with clarity and that is going to possible give me what I have been missing while being able to listen loud when I want to, I think it might have been wrong to say 100db's every day when that's not going to be the case but I do like to crank the tunes if I have rough days at work and such while still being able to enjoy the listen

(You will) Enjoy!

There is just something addictive about the highs that come from the dual tweeters. Acute clarity. M60 is single tweeter, M80 is dual. I have had both M80 standard and M80HP. HP will get more bass. However, save the money for amp power first. You have a stout sub. I like the idea of the M100 on the B-stock store.

Okay, thank you for the input RLS I appreciate all the help you and Mojo provided. I'll be calling Ian tomorrow and working out some numbers

Another vote for the B stock M100s, used the trade up option to go from my M80s v2 to the M100s, absolutely love them!!! If you can swing it, I would highly recommend them.

Aren't they friggin' amazing compared to the M80v2? All I kept reading from owners was the M100s had more bass than the old M80s - that's it! Then I get them and in 10 seconds of ABing I realize they're a completely different animal. LOOOOOL!

Awesome, Thanks guys. I am trying to get a hold of Ian as I am typing lol. I think I will be trying for the M100's and build from there. What would be the best Center channel fit for M100's?

Justin, for you it would definitely be the 180 with HP woofers but you may be able to get away with the standard 160 if you cross it over at 80Hz.

I have the standard 160v4 and I can't say enough good things about it. Every v4 I've heard is amazing. I have my 160 crossed over at 40Hz by the way.

The best way to get a hold of Ian is via email.

Okay awesome, Thank you Mojo

FYI, I have heard the 180v4 as well. I honestly did not hold out too much hope for it when I first saw it on the Axiom site because I really did not like the sound from my 150v2 and the driver configuration is similar. However, it is nothing like my 150v2. You can have full confidence that if you go the 180 route, it will sound terrific.

Okay, Thank you. I talked to Ian and have the M100's ordered in the boston cherry colour I am so excited to receive them. How long does it usually take to ship on average if I may ask?

Nice. It really depends on how busy the factory is. I'd say 3 weeks tops.

BTW, you're gonna be able to dump your entire ADA-1250 into them no problem. Your ADA will give out before the M100s do.

What are you using for sources?

My $0.02 would be to go with three M5HP's first.
Pretty sure you're gonna love them.
I don't have them but they're next on the list.
M80HP's and and axiom amp in my room sound pretty damb nice.
My current room is narrower than I'd like, thus the M5HP suggestion.

Are you thinking of switching out your m80s for M5s? Are they v4?

Mine?
Yes and No.
Its a tough decision...It'll cost me $ to go smaller.
My M80HP's are V3 with V4 tweeters.
My preference would be to get a larger room.

I'd ask Axiom if besides the tweeter, the v4 has a more refined presentation (i.e. the holography I keep babbling about). I wouldn't expect the M5 to sound better than the M80v3, especially with the new tweeter, but then again, who knows? Then there's your room. The smaller driver complement of the M5s may provide for an improved room interaction.

Yep. While I have things sounding pretty good one always wonders...
I got my M80's right before the V4 announcement. Axiom was kind enough to send me the V4 tweeters.

Mojo, My sources are:

Marantz Sr6013 reciver,
Pioneer UDB-LX500 4k bluray
Xbox one S
Ps4 Pro
4k apple Tv and a Iptv Box

I asked because I've recently discovered the electronics makes a big difference to the sound. I'm not only talking final amplification but also pre-amplification. I find with my M100s, the weakest link is now my Onk.

Your Marantz is full of tech but short on meaningful specs that can be used to judge performance. One thing that's very interesting to me is the use of current rather than voltage feedback. It's the first time I've seen this in an audio device. Current feedback has some definite advantages when it comes to performance.

If your Marantz pre-amp is low noise, provides equal gain across all channels, has high channel separation and low transient distortion, you'll have a killer system on your hands with the M100 and ADA-1250.

Okay cool, if I need to upgrade or sell the Marantz which receivers should I look into? I have had some luck with Yamaha in the past but look as if I would need to set up to the Aventage line to get any sorts of preouts

That's a great question a few of us on the boards have. Anthem comes to mind. Note I am not saying your Marantz is no good. When you look at the specs for Anthem though, you will see they are more transparent than the Marantz. That doesn't necessarily make the Anthem better because the Marantz may have the same specs but they are not published. Also there is also the question of what is audible and what is not. Generally, the lower the THD+N, the higher the channel separation, and dynamic capability, the better. I am sure though there is a point of diminishing returns. One thing I can tell you though is that low noise is under-rated. There is nothing like sound coming from a totally black background. Of course how quiet your listening environment is also plays a big role.

When you get your M100s and set them up right, you will for the first time in your life understand what you have been missing all your life. Then you will be looking for ways to further improve an already incredible experience that the vast majority on this planet will never witness.

hahaha Thanks for makes me more anxious.. See I was looking into other receiver brands before I made the Marantz purchase as I have always been a fan of Yamaha but seeing the marantz had the preouts I jumped on it not taking into consideration of the S/N ratio, THD specs or even the Rms power outputs per channel I understand they're a major key when purchasing a receiver but looked past that because I knew I would be running an amp. I will set everything up when the M100 arrive and take a deep listen, now my concern is that I might only be able to give the M100 3" from the front wall but as I understand if I crossover at 80hz it shouldnt pose to much of an issue, is that correct?

If you're placing the M100s so close to the front wall, I recommend you get port plugs. It's anyone's call how many you might need. Maybe you'll need them for all ports. I have Audyssey XT 32 like you and when I placed my M100s within a foot of the front wall (just for shits and giggles), Audyssey could not compensate. It never had that problem with my M80v2. I had to plug all the ports and then Audyssey could deal with it.

I have my M100s almost one third the way into my room. That allows them to develop a deep, layered soundstage. I also have them a little more than 12 feet apart and the soundstage is so frickin' wide, it's like I don't have walls (I have 21 feet width). In fact what's happening is, they are designed to reflect sound off the side walls in a very deliberate and engineered fashion (see Axiom's discussion on the Family of Curves or my poem from around December 20th). All v4 speakers do that BTW.

My M5s in my living room do the same thing as the M100s. It's like I don't have a front window or side walls! The only reason I didn't suggest M5s for you is because you want LOUD and you want clean. The M5s can go loud and clean but you're an SPL hound so M100s for you.

Note that you will get soundstage depth with the M100 close to your front wall but it likely won't be as deep as moving them off the wall. The last thing you want to do BTW is to move them into the room, be blown away by the depth, only to have to move them back against the wall. You may not be able to live with your room after that.

Ya the more I look into the area I have it's only 3" inch of room from the wall unless I want them right in the middle of the room lol. Unfortunately my room is more length than Width I have about 17ft Length and 13ft wide which doesn't include my furniture as this is in a living room not a dedicated home theater room. I am hoping to still get a very good soundstage with the room I have and still play loud when need be.

I take it you are putting the M100s along the long wall?

That's how I have my M5s set up in the living room. They're 10 feet apart and I am 10 feet away. They have 5 feet of breathing room on either side. They have about 2 feet from the front wall (to the back of the speaker). The sphincter holes (you'll see what I mean when you get yours) are wide open and no sub. Even with only 2 feet to the back wall, I get nice depth. Some songs have instruments and voices right out my front window (which is situated between the two speakers). Clarity, bass...everything actually...is top notch. I could easily melt my brain with an ADA-1000 if I wanted to and I'd die in bliss...LOL!

My furniture was getting in the way so I pitched it out my front door and over my fence into my neighbor's yard. His mice now have nice homes. Try it. It's very liberating!

I couldn't live like that, man. I'd extinguish my pain by finding out.

Mojo, your setup with the M5's are exactly what I need to do I will have the M100 against the side walls but about 3inches from the front wall unfortunately that's what I need to do or else I won't have a living space lol, if I need to I could always plug the rear ports and leave the front open as nothing will be blocking for up to 3.5ft away. I just worry that I am going to have an awesome speaker but can't use it to it's full potential forgive if I am wrong though

My living room living space consists of speakers, electronics and a comfy chair. Off to one side I have a wall adorned with all my "edged tools" that I can admire. They'll come in handy in a zombie invasion as I dispatch the soul-less to the blazing sounds of my M5s.

You may not be able to hear it at its full potential but what you will hear will be amazing nonetheless and so much better than what you've been used to. You're doing your brain a big solid.

At some point you'll find yourself itching to improve your room and do what I did. Maybe you'll even tear down a few walls.

hahaha I will probably resort to knocking down wall lol, I like your idea of a zombie invasion I think i'd do the same thing blast them out of there misery with detailed tunes. I honestly cannot wait to hear the m100's I can tell its going to be amazing just by what I've heard from you, Deb and Ian.

Thank you again for all your help and input I greatly appreciate it.

Well...I don't know about Deb and Ian. I think Deb has hers stuck up against the front and side walls and as for Ian, he apparently has 8 ADA-1500s connected up to two LFR-1100s for a total of 2400 Watts average, 7200 Watts per side. I think that means he melted his brain a long time ago. Ahahaha...I want to do that too...LOL!

Apparently Andrew can't build amps big enough for him and Ontario Hydro has to build a few more transmission lines to Dwight to keep up with Ian.

I have had a pair of M80. I now have the LFR1100. But I also have a pair of M3 computer speakers.

Yes, you can tell the difference between the M3 and the LFR1100. But I will say it is in the point of diminishing return. I have had friends over and were totally blown away with the sound from the M3.

I bring this up as you are likely overkilling yourself with the M100 as you are kneecapping yourself by putting them 3" from a back wall. NO NO NO NO !!!!!! Did I mention NO!

Get a smaller speaker like the M5 or even the M3, and then put an EP500 to the side. You will get far better sound in the room. Mojo might like to give out all the techno babble about wattage and compression and it is total bullshit when it comes to actual sound. You can be right in theory, but never have it happen statistically.

If you are coming from a set of Cerwin Vega then you just haven't heard good clean sound. It is great to say you crank them loud, but until you get a good responsive speaker you just can't understand.

It's your money. I would get on the phone with Ian and tell him that you want some speakers that you can put 3" from the wall, and he will likely sell you something totally different that what you ordered. He knows his stuff and knows what will make it sound the best.

The M3s are terrific but they will compress at 105dB. Justin said he likes it at 95 to 100dB average. That implies 115 to 120dB peaks. He just doesn't have the headroom with the M3s. Remember he is 12 feet away.

I've never heard the LFRs. However, I own the M3s and M100s, both v4 (and the M5). The soundstage is similar but larger and more enveloping with the M100. Images with the M100 are more defined with more space between them. The images are also larger and more developed. The quantity and quality of bass (even with a sub), and the quality of the rest of the audio band is significantly better with the M100 over the M3. It is the M5 that is the sweet spot in the line up. Unfortunately it's not up to the task for Justin's listening habits.

BTW, the M3, M5 and M100 are all compromised in similar ways when they're up against the front wall.

The dual tweeter is a necessity in its respective speakers for two reasons. The first is power handling. The second is spectral balance given the multiple woofers and mid-woofers. I proved out the second point myself on the M100. With the top tweeter blocked, the highs weren't as clear. On the M5 however, with its single tweeter, they are crystal because one tweeter is enough given one woofer and mid-woofer.

When dynamism is present in a recording, statistically speaking, it will want to be reproduced 100% of the time. If the speakers compress or electronics in the audio chain saturate, the peak will never get reproduced. When this happens, the experience is ruined 100% of the time - statistically speaking. You can see there's a lot of statistics in here, Matt.

I recently reported on this experience and it was an eye-opener for me. I always thought my Onk was so awesome but now I realize it soft-clips at a level far lower than anyone would expect. The reason for the lack of dynamics is puny reserve power.

Now I'll say this. If Justin listens to Metallica: Death Magnetic all day long at 100dB, I agree he can go with M3s. That is so dynamically compressed, there are no peaks.

True that. I would say, based on the CV specs I saw at the CV web site, Justin was listening to compression. He will experience a revelation with the v4.

My point was more that the 100db request is based on a set of CV speakers. When you get a better cleaner sound, then the need for 100db to get the experience will not be there and likely only need 90 or 95db and will come away with the feeling that the speakers at that level are louder than what you were getting at 100db with the CV.

I have moved from a pretty good set of Energy C3 speakers that compared to the previous Celestian I had were the next level better. But running them side by side with the smaller Axiom M3 speakers, I swear that the Axiom sounds cleaner and louder even though an SPL meter reading will tell you otherwise.

Yup. They'll sound louder than a typical SPL meter because the meter isn't fast enough to capture peaks. Aren't ear-brains amazing?

I hope Justin will, eventually, only need 80 to 85dB average which will bring him to 100 to 105dB peaks. That's right in line with THX recommendations. From his posts though and subsequent correspondence, he needs to discover that for himself.

Hello Guys thank you all again. Just to clarify a little, when it comes to music I listen to everything but mainly Country, 80's Hair bands and hiphop R&B which is where I mainly hit my 95-100db average well through my smartphone program and who knows how accurate that is. I understand that the Cv's where mainly boomy but I bought them to replace my Klipsch R-28F towers which sounded great but didn't have a bottem end which now I have a sub to fill that void and am hoping that I enjoy the sound of the M100's

Justin, your old Klipsch are significantly more sensitive than the M100s. The spec sheet says so but so do my ears because I've spent some time with Klipsch speakers in the past. This means they go loud with relatively little power - and ultmately reach louder than the M100 if the Klipsch spec is accurate at 600W peak power which I assume is before compression sets in. This is largely a result of the tractrix horn. Unfortunately, this horn also makes them unlistenable.

I really don't want to influence you too much regarding the M100s. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the listening experience.

One other thing, dude. 95 to 100dB is dangerous for your ears. It's actually louder than what your phone app is reporting because the mic is dynamically limited and so is the frequency response.

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