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#431721 - 04/05/19 11:00 AM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6341
The QS10s were a big difference for me because my sides are 11' away from my MLP. I was missing a lot with the QS8. I think even in your space, you will notice the difference. As for the rears, I can't hear anything in the rear 2 channels no matter what speaker I use. I traded in four QS8s for two QS10s. With the 10s, I get a more expansive sound field, more detail, lower distortion and more SPL.

Your Onk is a newer version than mine. Mine is no ADA 1500 or 1000 but for my 4200 cu. ft. space and 13' MLP, it is more than adequate for movies with M3, M5 or M100. 2.1 music is a bit different and I'll have more to say about that soon. For your room size and MLP, I'd say your Onk is more than adequate but maybe ARC can make your system sound better.

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#431725 - 04/05/19 03:58 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
brendo Offline
devotee

Registered: 10/14/14
Posts: 497
Loc: West coast Canada
On another note with the newest Pioneer and Onkyo you probably have no difference. {they are now partnered} The models even look identical. Plus they are notorious for inflating power ratings.

The Anthem has more power off the bat 140watts.

For me my main reason for going Anthem was having an all Canadian system minus the C.D. blueray {Sony}. Axiom speakers ADA 1250, Anthem MRX720, and a fluance RT81 T.T.

We Canadians aren't known for patriotism so much so I figured what the hell go team Canada!!! We created Basketball, We're the Hockey champs. Now Canada owns Audio too!!! Support your country all the way HOORAY Canada.

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#431735 - 04/07/19 02:53 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: bman84]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4220
Loc: Up yonder
Originally Posted By bman84
Originally Posted By michael_d
If my current Denon would pass the video stream, unmolested, I would not swap it out. It may seem trivial, but I like to see the menu screen of the audio processor on my display.

Which Anthem AVR would you suggest? I have no experience with Anthem.

FWIW, The AV sales rep I am working with suggested the Denon X4500.


I'm currently running a Denon 4500H, if you have any questions. I opted for a 'poor man's separates' setup, with an ADA1000-3 driving LCR, and the Denon handling amplification for the other 8 channels.


Any regrets not going with the 6500?
_________________________


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#431741 - 04/08/19 10:02 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
bman84 Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/29/18
Posts: 181
Loc: Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By michael_d
Originally Posted By bman84
Originally Posted By michael_d
If my current Denon would pass the video stream, unmolested, I would not swap it out. It may seem trivial, but I like to see the menu screen of the audio processor on my display.

Which Anthem AVR would you suggest? I have no experience with Anthem.

FWIW, The AV sales rep I am working with suggested the Denon X4500.


I'm currently running a Denon 4500H, if you have any questions. I opted for a 'poor man's separates' setup, with an ADA1000-3 driving LCR, and the Denon handling amplification for the other 8 channels.


Any regrets not going with the 6500?


Nope. Pretty sure a 4500+ADA-1000 is cheaper, and destroys a 6500.
_________________________
Axiom M5HP,VP180,M3,ADA1000
Anthem MRX 720
SVS SB-3000 (dual)

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#431742 - 04/08/19 11:48 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
nickbuol Offline
axiomite

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 5371
Loc: Marion, IA
Just jumping in here after being away a few days. I have had a number of receivers over the years in the $800 - $1200 price range, but when I jumped to the Anthem MRX-1120 I was blown away! I was a big fan of Audyssey XT32 to help fix minor things AFTER doing acoustical room treatments of course (no amount of digital trickery can fix all of a room's problems). I had really dialed in my system, and then when I made the jump to Atmos with the Anthem MRX-1120, it sounded 100x better (ok, maybe 10x better, but a LOT better) right out of the box. The power and sound was so clean thanks to what I call "real" power output from a quality power amplifier inside the receiver. Then I ran ARC and WOWZA. As other say, it is right up there neck-in-neck with the likes of DIRAC and is always listed as the top 1 or 2 room correction system in the upper class of systems.

As mentioned, other receivers really fake their wattage numbers a lot. Anthem is known for being very accurate with it. That is why when people read that the MRX-1120 "only" has 60 watts for the overhead channels, the uneducated say that it is "too weak." Little do they know that their receivers are 'cooking the books' so to speak on how much clean power they supply, and when taking into account that most of the inflated receiver numbers put them fairly weak as well, and also keep in mind that to start hearing a difference in output capacity means at least doubling the wattage. So to get a +3dB increase is max output, you need to jump to 120 (real) watts.

Trust me, the 60 watt output going to each of my overhead M3s is a LOT of power. My room is about 14 feet wide x 24 feet long x almost 8 feet tall.

Side note. The price of the MRX-1120 is pretty steep. I got mine from an installer for a REALLY good price, but he has since gotten into a little bit of hot water for under-cutting other dealers and selling almost at his cost (in Canadian dollars) to people in the U.S. So not only did I get "almost" dealer pricing, but I bought back when they first came out and the US dollar was really strong vs the Canadian dollar, so it ended up being almost 40% off regular price, brand new, shipped to my door with full warranty. Made it a lot easier to swallow the cost, especially when it was one of the only "all in one box" receivers that could do 7.1.4 without extra amplifiers at the time.
_________________________
2-M60s, VP180, 8-M3s, SVS 20-39PCi, DIY Sub, 8-Shakers, JVC RS45, Anthem MRX-1120

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#431744 - 04/09/19 10:02 AM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
michael_d Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 4220
Loc: Up yonder
Thanks for the input Nick.

I will not be using the receiver's amps. I have external amps. I'm more interested in how the pre-amp sections work and process sound than amplification.

I've been reviewing specs and owner's manuals of Anthem, NAD and Denon. (I will not buy Marantz or Onkyo, or Yamaha or Pioneer).

I almost ordered the NAD AVR, but it does not overlay the audio menu onto the video stream. That's a deal breaker for me.

I also want independent sub volume/delay functions for my two subs. The Denon's do this, but I'm not sure if the Anthem does.
_________________________


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#431745 - 04/09/19 11:20 AM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6341
Unless Anthem has upgraded that receiver, it's still 7.1.4 so no dual sub capability.

I don't get the sense that Anthem is innovating any longer. It appears to me they've built some great products that are now in sustainment. I hope I am wrong.

Regarding power levels, I am elated with Axiom's transparent publishing of peak power for speakers and amps. Speaker peak power is 4 times continuous and peak amplifier power at 3 times continuous. The peak ratings are what really count. Axiom has its own methods for characterizing these levels but I really see it as a big failing of this industry to not come together and decide on a standard or at least, as a first step, a recommended practice, for peak power.

With regard to external amplification, for 5.1 and maybe 7.1, I fail to see why it's needed with Axiom speakers for both movies and music in a space as big as mine (4200 cu ft, 13' MLP). My 2012 $800 Onk has no problem. I'd expect the newer ones to be as capable if not more. That's not to say the Onk is as capable as the 1000 or 1500 but there is a practical limit and my ears-brain are at that limit.

With more channels, the equation may favor external amplification. Or, as Ian says, if you want to throw dance parties. And if you are like Slimpikins, who enjoys his Ts from 25 feet away while grazing, a 1250 or 1500 would do you well.

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#431746 - 04/09/19 03:38 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
Adrian Offline
axiomite

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6913
Loc: It's all about the location.
Michael, just to give you another possible option, you could use a Minidsp or Dayton's DSP-408(similar) with the AVR to give you much greater flexibility with your (multiple) subs.
_________________________
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

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#431747 - 04/09/19 07:19 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: michael_d]
Mojo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 01/21/07
Posts: 6341
I'll also add if you are playing your receiver at around zero, you need an external amp. Both ADAs sound cleaner at 0 than my Onk. But -5 on my Onk, with music, is about as much as I can take and up to that point, no matter whether I use M3, M5 or M100, it's all good. As for movies, I don't have any practical limit with the Onk.

BTW, I have all the data to prove the above. Right around zero, the channel output voltage on my Onk starts to collapse (30VRMS) no matter what speaker I use. This of course is expected. The ADA-1500 just keeps on going right up to 75VRMS. The ADA-1500 peak volts should go even higher but that's the limit I've found with my Onk's pre-amp. The Onk's pre-amp saturates when I turn the gain up to about +8.5 even though it can go up to +12.5.

M100s sound the best, followed my M5s, followed by M3s.

In terms of SPL, the 100 is about 3dB more sensitive than the M3 (which means it needs half the power of the M3 to sound as loud as the M3). The M5, even though it has the HP driver, has no balls because it's about 4dB less sensitive than the M3. BUT...and this is a big BUT...the M5 sounds better than the M3 because that HP driver is more linear, it has that sweet mid-woofer that disperses the mids so nicely and sounds OhSoCrisp(TM) and the tweeter cross-over is tweaked to sound better than the M3 to boot!

I'd like to try the M22s some day and see how they differ.

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#431748 - 04/09/19 07:48 PM Re: AVR or pre amp recommendations? Going 4K [Re: Mojo]
CV Offline
Founder, Axiom Upgrade Club
shareholder in the making

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 11735
Loc: Richland, WA, USA
Originally Posted By Mojo
I don't get the sense that Anthem is innovating any longer. It appears to me they've built some great products that are now in sustainment. I hope I am wrong.


Something I remember hearing is that they take longer between generations of products, so not a new model every year. I imagine they will have to start gearing up for a new generation soon, though.

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