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Force or Freedom?
#436777 05/16/20 08:39 PM
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It's done. I bought a Force and a Freedom. May the best Air win.

Last edited by Mojo; 05/16/20 08:54 PM.

A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436786 05/16/20 11:07 PM
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Boom!!!

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436787 05/17/20 12:13 AM
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Eight or nine years ago, I bought one of these for $9.99 at I believe London Drugs. I use it when working remotely on my laptop.

No, it is not hi-fi in any sense of the word but when listening to most Jazz, like the playlist below, it is very enjoyable.

No sound-stage, no dynamics, no imaging, no separation...no nothing but a bunch of muddled music somewhere in the area just behind my camera.

It's quite surprising how my brain says such garbage reproduction is perfectly OK, given the compromised listening environment consisting of a laptop precariously perched on my lap, and usually a cup of coffee or wine in one paw and a mouse in the other.

It's even more surprising given the number of speakers I've owned over the years and listened to in various rooms.

BTW, that Logitech is going head-to-head with the Air.

https://www.amazon.ca/Logitech-Laptop-Speaker-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B003VAK1I2

https://open.spotify.com/user/squaz/playlist/1QZxzcyvb9Fqcv2si9cT9e?si=MQ3vXHLCTSCcy0TLPGxr7A

Last edited by Mojo; 05/17/20 12:15 AM.

A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436789 05/17/20 02:02 AM
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Looking forward to hearing to results smile

Over 20y ago I got these:
[Linked Image from changstar.com]

I loved those little speakers next to my monitor! Had them for well over 15y... still put a smile on my face just thinking about listening to music through them.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Curved Air #436790 05/17/20 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Curved Air
Over 20y ago I got these:

I believe I had that set. Definitely one of my earlier forays into audio. Had those, the Klipsch computer speakers, the Xbox-branded omnidirectional surround speakers. Fun times!

After committing to Axiom M80s as my first big audiophile purchase, I've stayed brand-loyal because nothing else has seemed like as much of a value and as unwavering in the pursuit of real science. I'm occasionally curious about what else is out there, but it's just too expensive a hobby to cast my net very wide. I do want to find a decent set of computer speakers for my secondary computer, but I'm not in a huge rush yet.

Re: Force or Freedom?
CV #436791 05/17/20 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CV
the Xbox-branded omnidirectional surround speakers. Fun times!

Out of curiosity, did Andrew work on these when he worked for API?

Re: Force or Freedom?
Curved Air #436797 05/17/20 06:21 AM
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I think I may have the version before those ... 1994 ... the subwoofer/amp was MDF with a molded plastic front. My wife still uses them for her computer speakers.

Bought them when SoundWorks was a couple of rooms on the 2nd floor of a house converted for commercial use. It was just off main street in Watertown MA (one town over from where I was living). Went there to get it's internal amp fixed under warrantee ... took all of 10 minutes.

Last edited by rrlev; 05/17/20 06:30 AM. Reason: wrote wrong town
Re: Force or Freedom?
CV #436817 05/19/20 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CV
Originally Posted by CV
the Xbox-branded omnidirectional surround speakers. Fun times!

Out of curiosity, did Andrew work on these when he worked for API?

I had a hand in some of the acoustic work, and the Omnipolar technology used is based on my patent, but most of the electronics, driver design, etc. was not done in-house for that system.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Andrew #436819 05/19/20 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Andrew
I had a hand in some of the acoustic work, and the Omnipolar technology used is based on my patent, but most of the electronics, driver design, etc. was not done in-house for that system.

It was a fun system for me at the time. Being a new hobbyist without a ton of disposable income, it was nice to at least dip my toes into some compelling technology.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436835 05/22/20 02:53 PM
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Both shipped in 6 days.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436874 05/27/20 03:10 PM
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Arrived 9 am this morning.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436875 05/27/20 03:41 PM
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The Freedom has a new generation of packaging. Really nicely done. The Force has an older generation of packaging which is also very robust. Each Air has its own manual. Not sure I like the top on the Force but that's easily changeable. I love the top on the Freedom.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436876 05/27/20 04:29 PM
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Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on those Mojo.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436877 05/27/20 04:41 PM
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I am running Breeze by Mitch Murder on the Freedom. No lack of bass. It's similar in the bass department to my M2OW/twin subs in my living room.

The Freedom has a bass port on the bottom BTW.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436878 05/27/20 05:01 PM
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I have absolutely no concerns with the sound quality or volume from the Freedom. I am on the deck and it is LOUD and CLEAR.

No, you won't get texture and growling in the bass like you get from active LFRs, and three EP subs. You don't get the crystal clear presentation of the actives either. But it's like my M2OW with dual, large, cheap subs.

You don't get soundstage either but how could you with a foot separation between tweeters.

Pretty damned awesome sound!

I can't speak about the robustness of the firmware and client software yet.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436879 05/27/20 05:43 PM
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The Force sounds better. In every way. It is not the same sound as the Kickstarter. I returned that POS and thanks Axiom for taking it back. The sound of this new Force is so good! It is very spacious-sounding. Pretty awesome!


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436880 05/27/20 05:54 PM
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The cherry chestnut top on my Freedom is gorgeous!

The walnut nutmeg on the Force is too orangey for me. It would go great with 70s shag though.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436881 05/27/20 06:19 PM
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I love the web radio. Right through the app. On my phone. Out on my deck. With a beer.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436883 05/27/20 06:29 PM
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I have only run the AxAir N3 (same as force?) indoors and it is fairly boomy.
Not like a M3 at all ...

I'll have to try it on the deck.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436884 05/27/20 06:37 PM
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I haven't tried the Force (N3) inside the house. When I got my kickstarter unit, one of the biggest problems I had was boominess. I don't hear boominess on the deck.

I had a long, qualitative list of other audio quality problems too. I don't hear those anymore. I hear very, very nice sound. Excellent mid-bass too. Yes, the mids are like an M3 and that's just fine with me.

The sound has changed for the better since the kickstarter days.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436887 05/28/20 12:14 AM
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I don't hear boominess with either Air inside the house.

If you place them on a large, hard surface and turn them up, they will boom, rattle and roll.

I've found it useful to stuff the bottom port of the Freedom.

I suppose if you don't like these limitations, go buy a one Watt bluetooth POS or a "real" speaker system.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436888 05/28/20 12:19 AM
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In my living room I much prefer my M2OW system. In every possible way.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436891 05/28/20 01:25 AM
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The Kickstarter Force had a siliconey feel to the back. Tactilely, it was kinda cool. But dust adhered to it and made it difficult to clean. I like the plastic of the latest generation much better.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436892 05/28/20 02:37 AM
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I must have a hybrid since I bought it as a refurb ... probably got yours!!

Like you describe, The N3 I recieved has a rubbery outside but it must have an upgraded processor since it doesn't need a dongle for bluetooth. The white rubbery parts have turned a bit yellow in places and the thin edges of the top plate has chips (making it look a bit disheveled). This probably is from years of banishment to and hard labor in the shop.

I originally bought it for music outside (thinking I could move it between the back deck, front porch, and patio) but those spaces took a few years more then planned to materialize ... Since I was not fond of the boom (which I found really annoying on certain songs) it got banished to the shop and occasionally the garage.

I have a feeling that things have changed since I formed my original opinion. I only recently upgraded the software and haven't given it a 2nd listened. With all the glowing reviews I bet Ian and co. must have tweaked the DSP code. If so ... the Air may see daylight soon.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436893 05/28/20 02:57 AM
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The Air does not have a DSP. Trade it in.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436895 05/28/20 03:30 AM
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You can still do some filtering. How complex is dependent on the real-time performance of the PI and OS.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436899 05/28/20 01:45 PM
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I rolled out of bed this morning, pumped out a cappuccino, and now I'm enjoying Freedom on my deck. I know Axiom went through hell bringing the various Airs to market. This stuff is not easy on so many levels. But it so worth it in the end. From a Canadian company nonetheless. This is a great platform and I hope it continues to flourish.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436900 05/28/20 02:07 PM
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So far so good on connectivity and uptime of the firmware and software. What a difference from the Kickstarter days!

I've had both Airs 80 feet away from my router. That signal has to get from the far end of my basement to the far end of my yard. It has to go through a floor diagonally and through multiple walls. I've had no drop-outs via Spotify and web radio.

Guillaume has done a good job of overhauling the firmware and software. Admittedly I haven't tried to brick it but I remember when I got my Kickstarter unit, all I had to do was look at it wrong and it would stutter and die. The only problem I've had so far is the volume control through the Android app. I changed it from natural to linear and could no longer get max volume out. I re-started it through the app, changed it to natural and decided to just leave it alone. I've done a few other things like change the name, save radio stations, etc and all has worked well. I find interface responsiveness is quite good.

I haven't tried anything but wi-fi so I can't speak to other functions. From what I've experienced so far, both are well-baked products.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436901 05/28/20 06:12 PM
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Looks like your getting into it. When I received mine I had to fool with it to get it working. Don't remember what I did but at the time I was thinking it was not quite an appliance yet. Anyway, once I did I it just worked ... Think that was in 2016. Except for doing a sim re-flash to the latest air version (a couple of months ago), I've only have connected my iPhone or iPad and played music.

The boot time before the flash was a bit frustrating though ... Glad to see it down to 30 second or so ... it's possible to do better (less then 1/2 sec if you cutout all the unnecessary stuff, hardcode the linux kernel configuration, and ...) but I can tolerate 30 seconds. Wonder if the air sleeps and if so, how much power it uses in this mode.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436902 05/28/20 07:07 PM
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It's about 34 seconds to boot up. That's just fine with me. Consistency and reliability with functionality is more important to me than speed. The Kickstarter Air was neither of those.

I've noticed the Android Spotify app loses the Air. I can't blame this on the Air because the Spotify app also loses my Chromecast Audio, Chromecast video and Firestick 4K from time to time. The Spotify app crashed badly once on my Firestick 4K. I had to uninstall and re-install it.

This Spotify behavior has happened twice today. Both times, the AxiomAir app could locate the Air. I had to soft-boot the Air through the AxiomAir app before the Spotify app could identify it.

Sometime this weekend I plan to put the Force and Freedom side by side to do listening comparisons. I already know the Force sounds better but haven't taken it further than that.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436903 05/28/20 08:04 PM
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Regarding my post below, both Airs sound better than the $10 soundbar. I don't want to use adjectives to describe exactly how infinitely and supremely better because Mike will say I am hyperbolizing.


Originally Posted by Mojo
Eight or nine years ago, I bought one of these for $9.99 at I believe London Drugs. I use it when working remotely on my laptop.

No, it is not hi-fi in any sense of the word but when listening to most Jazz, like the playlist below, it is very enjoyable.

No sound-stage, no dynamics, no imaging, no separation...no nothing but a bunch of muddled music somewhere in the area just behind my camera.

It's quite surprising how my brain says such garbage reproduction is perfectly OK, given the compromised listening environment consisting of a laptop precariously perched on my lap, and usually a cup of coffee or wine in one paw and a mouse in the other.

It's even more surprising given the number of speakers I've owned over the years and listened to in various rooms.

BTW, that Logitech is going head-to-head with the Air.

https://www.amazon.ca/Logitech-Laptop-Speaker-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B003VAK1I2

https://open.spotify.com/user/squaz/playlist/1QZxzcyvb9Fqcv2si9cT9e?si=MQ3vXHLCTSCcy0TLPGxr7A


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436907 05/28/20 10:47 PM
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A tremendous gust of wind blew our beer, wine and assorted cheeses and crackers all over the deck! But my fabulous Freedom facilely flaunted ferocious firmness in the face of frightful ferment.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436909 05/29/20 02:20 PM
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The Force no longer has a subwoofer output. I find it doesn't need it.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436910 05/29/20 04:22 PM
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I find the Force replacing my Freedom even though the Freedom is more convenient. I have a battery for the Freedom but not the Force.

The sound from the Force is better across the entire band.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436913 05/29/20 11:23 PM
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I've been sitting off-axis all day on the deck listening to the Force. The lack of soundstage has been really bothering me.

I've placed it 8 feet away now and I'm sitting on axis listening to Clapton unplugged. The difference in soundstage is incredible. No, it's not like dedicated speakers but my brain is no longer complaining. The tweeters are spaced far enough apart and are dispersive enough to somewhat fool me.

Pretty sweet. I could actually see this thing filling in a need for cramped quarters as a replacement for a sound bar. I'd buy this over a sound bar because I can unplug it and take it on the go.

Clapton sounds great. Very balanced. Good bass, nuanced sub-bass, very acceptable highs. Acceptable, clear mids that sound better than the M3.

Axiom nailed the mid-bass on this thing. That's a theme with all v4 compared to v2. Very satisfying.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436914 05/29/20 11:46 PM
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Damn, this sounds so good! The piano and cymbals sound so natural.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436915 05/30/20 12:02 AM
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Damn, this goes loud and clean. I'm 10 feet away now on axis and it's loud and wide! Stereo separation is nothing I complain about now. I have to sound-proof my deck.


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Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436916 05/30/20 12:10 AM
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Damn, this is crazy.

I got this tune turned all the way up. Not a single bad noise. I hear clear music all across my deck.

https://open.spotify.com/track/6HNFXff24fIzsENnlqHj7G?si=Hr336iRfRECenDreduTyIQ


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436917 05/30/20 12:26 AM
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I'm concluding if you need a portable device for some ambience, the Freedom is the way to go. If you want it loud, care about HQ sound, and want to mimic stereo like in your house, Force all the way.

Once you experience Force, you can never go back to Freedom.

I'm not so sure anymore about the need for a mid-range driver on the Force. Or HP drivers. Or more power.

Damn, I think it's OK just the way it is!


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436918 05/30/20 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
I got this tune turned all the way up. Not a single bad noise. I hear clear music all across my deck.

https://open.spotify.com/track/6HNFXff24fIzsENnlqHj7G?si=Hr336iRfRECenDreduTyIQ

That's a fun one.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436919 05/30/20 12:59 AM
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Yup. And when I said across, I meant width, not depth. My deck is 24 feet wide.


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100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436920 05/30/20 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
Once you experience Force, you can never go back to Freedom.
Glad I went with the Force cool

Re: Force or Freedom?
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I am curious if you've ever placed it at head level, sat on axis and listened to well-recorded tunes in an open area (free of boundaries) at say 75% or more volume. It is really quite amazing.


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Re: Force or Freedom?
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I have not but will look to do that when I’m able.

I really enjoy being able to sync three zones and be able to move from outside to inside and the music keeps playing.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436923 05/30/20 02:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
The difference in soundstage is incredible. No, it's not like dedicated speakers but my brain is no longer complaining.

I never tried to listen for a stage off it ... sent it to the dungeon fairly quickly and no one listens for stage amongst the machines.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436924 05/30/20 02:16 AM
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Here's my temporary stand for head level.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436925 05/30/20 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
Once you experience Force, you can never go back to Freedom!
Very Vader of you.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436926 05/30/20 02:18 AM
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The Freedom will be traded for the AxiomAir Fury. laugh


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436927 05/30/20 02:23 AM
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I was just thinking this thing needs the ability to tip back when it's below head level. When it's on the ground, you should be able to tip it so it's facing up. It needs a stand with varying height and a way to adjust pitch. With servos. Via the app.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436928 05/30/20 02:28 AM
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I should rip my ADA-1500 apart, glue the toroid and rectifier/capacitor board on the top shelf and jam a 2-channel card in there.

I don't know why Andrew doesn't think of these things.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436929 05/30/20 02:31 AM
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I can't figure out why everyone doesn't have one of these. WTF is wrong with people?


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436933 05/30/20 12:37 PM
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I used the sleep timer on the Freedom last night. I set it to shut down the unit when it expired. It worked like a charm.

Something's going on though that I need to investigate. It was playing Clapton Unplugged and it sounded as good as the Force. This time I had the Freedom plugged into AC. All other times I had it on battery. Maybe it doesn't sound as good on battery? I need to follow up on that theory today.

BTW, it was placed on a tall chest of drawers close to a corner and it didn't boom or make any other funny noises even when turned it up.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436935 05/30/20 12:57 PM
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What a gorgeous morning on the deck. 7 am and it's 12 degrees. Time to wake the neighbors with some Air.

I just noticed the Freedom's industrial design is a bit different from its sibling. It has a unitized back. It looks clean. The Force has more pieces. The grill on the Force is rubberized. The Freedom is bare metal.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436939 05/30/20 03:31 PM
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I stacked the Freedom on top of the Force. I've been listening from 8 feet away on-axis, at a mid-point between the two units. Both are plugged into AC.

I trained myself to hear the difference between the two. Casual listeners would never be able to tell the difference.

The differences are in the quality of the bass and highs. The bass on the Force has more texture. It's possible some may never be able to pick up on this no matter how much they were trained. The easier one to train for is the highs. No question, when listening face on, the highs on the Force are more expansive, more satisfying. I attribute this to the greater difference between tweeters but it could be something else also.

You can get more volume out of the Force but not excessively so.

If using it in place of a soundbar, go for the Force. If you don't have it at face level, it doesn't matter much which one you go with.

The Force has a 2A phone charging output, Karaoke and extra battery options.

Bottom line, they both sound very similar. Those who want to mix the Force and Freedom throughout their spaces would do very well and not miss anything.

Right now I am feeling like they are both too similar. From an acoustic perspective, there is little difference between them unless you are being very critical...like me.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436941 05/30/20 04:59 PM
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I'm sitting 11 feet away from the Force on the deck. Other than the board it's sitting on, there are no other boundaries. I can hear castanettes or whatever in the tune below 7 feet to either side of the Force.

https://open.spotify.com/track/3xkoUGbf11dLvsfIdgfmIp?si=O_CO65fbQI6Yd2HqjYweMQ


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436950 05/31/20 05:01 AM
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Rich, this may be of interest to you.

My buddy was over with his Kickstarter Air. There is no question Axiom changed the bass for the better on the Force. It's not flabby and loose down low. Also the mid-bass has more pop.

While he can easily discern these improvements, he is not fussy enough about sound to upgrade.

I on the other hand am very pleased with these. The bass was a major reason I returned the Kickstarter Air. Now the sound is terrific.

We noticed a couple of cosmetic differences too. The top shelf trim no longer has a relief; it's completely smooth. His grill is a darker black. We both liked the darker look.

BTW, his top is the standard glossy black. We both think it looks pretty swanky.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436993 06/01/20 02:45 PM
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I've really been enjoying web radio on these things. Jazzgroove.org is an excellent choice for smooth jazz.

I wonder how many out there may not be aware of the web radio feature. Already two folks I know had no clue it had web radio.


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1 member likes this: Andrew
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436995 06/01/20 04:09 PM
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And it's not just with our products, so many people have no idea the world of webradio exists. Best of all IT'S FREE! No service contracts, nothing. Music from any genre, all over the world in pretty much any language. The quality can be hit and miss, but some of the channels are extremely good. Our Transformer at home gets used exclusively for webradio and Tidal...probably 80% of that is webradio!

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436997 06/01/20 05:09 PM
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I agree with the hit or miss on the quality. That jazz station is good. Many tracks on there are off of vinyl but I like the less than pristine fidelity of vinyl. I just don't like dealing with vinyl. I find that many of the old, vinyl recordings sound excellent from a sound-stage/imaging perspective.

Apparently that station can also be had in 5.1 with I believe a donation. Curiously, the announcer said you don't need a 5.1 system. I have no idea how that works.

If I had a transformer in the living room and in the basement, I'd very much consider canceling my Spotify account and do just web radio. I don't really listen to artists. Rather, I listen to genres, forms and styles.

Before canceling, I'd want to make sure that the web radio functions on the Air "work". By that I mean being able to save to favorites and having them permanently saved. I had trouble with that on the Kickstarter Air.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436998 06/01/20 05:11 PM
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In general Internet radio is great! But of late, we have been experiencing drop out problems on our inexpensive Denon receiver.

With so many people staying at home the internet maybe bogging down enough to lose sync ... The Denon's buffer maybe too small or perhaps throttling is in play.

I'll be swapping the Denon soon for a transformer ... be interesting if it does better.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #436999 06/01/20 05:13 PM
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I haven't noticed any drop-outs with the stations I've been on. Admittedly I have not been on the Air long enough to draw a conclusion in that regard.


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437007 06/01/20 09:35 PM
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I've used the following link to add some high quality streams to "My Web Radios". It's easy to add stations but tedious.

https://www.hiresaudio.online/cd-quality-internet-radio/


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1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437008 06/01/20 09:39 PM
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We'll be able to back up our Air data and get curated streams from the Air Cloud one day.


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100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437017 06/02/20 12:38 AM
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The new Airs have volume and mute buttons. The mute button alone is worth the upgrade. When answering a phone call, who has time to mute via the app?


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437028 06/02/20 05:31 PM
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I've had drop-outs on a few internet radio stations. This was not the Air's fault. The radio stations were flaky.

The radio station saves have so far been latched in memory. No worries there. Not sure what happens on a server or client update. I'd hate to lose them. I'd love to have a way to back up and restore config data periodically just in case there's a crash. Ideally, the update client ought to back up and restore config data during an update.

As Andrew said in another post, TuneIn stations can't be saved yet. A couple of us, maybe more, need that.

I'm really enjoying both Airs. It's great to have music in my bedroom, the bathroom, the deck...everywhere!

My son's back in 2 weeks and he gets his own Air so he's pretty excited about that.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437031 06/02/20 10:57 PM
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Mi Paisito is an excellent party station.


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100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437032 06/02/20 11:12 PM
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I am so impressed with the dynamic capability of these things.

I'm sitting on the deck (free space) listening to Me Paisito on the Freedom. I'm 8 feet away listening at 75 dBC. On battery.

I can crank it and get clean 102 dBC peaks at 8 feet away. That's 27 dB of headroom! From a portable!! Clean!!!

On AC it could probably squeeze out another dB. No one can ask for more. Not even difficult me.

I bet the Force can squeeze out a clean 105 dBC on AC in the great outdoors.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437036 06/03/20 01:04 AM
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Back on March 31, 2016, at 9:09 MST, I had the following to say about the Kickstarter N3. As you can see, I didn't pull any punches. I went through this list again with the Force and the Freedom.

I have no idea what Axiom did but I no longer have any of the complaints in this list. I love them both and the sound they exude.

Maybe it was the Shashimi resistors.

Sound-stage may be one criticism but as I told Axiom back then in a separate e-mail, sound-stage is not a fair category for a device like this.

I had to use two posts because the boards couldn't accept a single, longer post.


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Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437038 06/03/20 01:05 AM
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Hi Ian and Andrew,

Here are my listening impressions. I'll just summarize by saying it's not my cup of tea the way it stands.

I have used this glossary to describe what I hear: http://www.head-fi.org/a/describing-sound-a-glossary. (sorry, but as of the time of this post, this link leads to nowhere).

Here goes:

- not aggressive
- little ambience
- not analytical/detailed
- not too articulate
- not great attack
- Perfect channel balance. Not sure about tonal balance
- bassy
- somewhat bloated
- blurry
- lots of body
- sometimes boxy
- no breath
- not bright
- not brilliant
- sometimes chesty
- not clear
- very closed sounding
- congested
- colored
- not cool
- not crisp
- dark
- not sure about decay
- not very defined
- not very delicate
- no depth
- not detailed
- not dry
- somewhat dull (it really fails to involve me. I noticed this right -from the start!)
- not very dynamic
- not edgy
- not sure it's euphonic
- not fast
- fat
- focused
- not forward
- full
- not fun
- gentle
- not grainy
- grippy but not on sub-bass
- not grungy
- not hard
- not harsh
- not hollow
- not honky
- absolutely no imaging whatsoever
- not juicy
- not laid-back
- not liquidy
- no low level detail
- lush
- mellow
- can be muddy
- muffled
- not musical
- not nasal
- not natural
- opaque
- not open
- not too sure about pace
- not piercing
- no presence
- not puffy
- not punchy
- rich
- round
- has rhythm
- not seismic but does have some sub-bass resonance that I can't say is good
- not shrill
- not sibilant
- not sizzly
- smeared
- smooth
- no snap
- no soundstage
- not spacious
- not speedy
- not steady
- not strident
- VERY STURDY!
- can't say it's sweet
- not tinny
- textured
- thick
- not thin
- not tight
- not terrible timing but not great either
- not great transient response
- can be tubby
- veiled
- warm
- weighty but I wouldn't say the sub-bass is controlled
- woolly in sub-bass

Last edited by Mojo; 06/03/20 01:08 AM.

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Re: Force or Freedom?
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The Sleep and Alarm functions have been working flawlessly.

I've set the Alarm to play an Internet Radio station playlist.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437043 06/03/20 08:27 PM
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My first AxiomAir Transformer is coming. That will replace the Chromecast Audio in the living room feeding my Walnut Espresso M2OW via dual monoblock, dual toroid, with Elna Silmic II electrolytic caps Pioneer.

The next two Transformers will be for the basement and office.

I'll Air out my entire house and yard. I'll be more of an Air head than I already am.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437044 06/03/20 10:35 PM
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If you buy these to listen to badly recorded music, you'll be extremely satisfied. Your music will sound as trashy as the recording.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437065 06/05/20 01:10 AM
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Both Airs are boomy if you listen to them backwards. If you do that though, you deserve all the boom you get.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437066 06/05/20 01:15 AM
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It's raining pussies and pooches here. It's really spoiled my Airy evening on the deck.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437071 06/05/20 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
It's raining pussies and pooches here. It's really spoiled my Airy evening on the deck.

Sounds peaceful. It rains tigers and lions over here.

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437087 06/05/20 01:44 PM
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Damn, the alarm didn't go off this morning. Lesson learned. Don't trust the alarm. Sleep continues to work.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437088 06/05/20 03:01 PM
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I’ve used the sleep function a ton and never had an issue with it. Can’t say I’ve ever used the alarm...

Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437089 06/05/20 03:13 PM
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Thanks. I've used the sleep successfully for 7 days. The alarm missed first time in those 7 days. I checked it all out and it's not user error.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437107 06/06/20 01:02 PM
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The alarm worked this morning. Go figure.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437110 06/06/20 09:58 PM
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Viva El Salvador. Home of Mi Paisito - a high quality internet radio station.

I listen to Mi Paisito and want to hug my Force and Freedom. Then I put on Hells Bells and want to pitch both of them over my neighbor's roof.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437125 06/12/20 06:34 AM
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Happiness is listening to Okie from Muskogee on the Freedom at 12:30 am on a cool summer night while burning tamarac birch in the firepit and nursing a gin and tonic on the rocks with one-and-a-half twists of lime.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437290 06/25/20 11:25 PM
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My Airs are keeping my roofers entertained. The Freedom in the front yard and the Force in the back. Neighbors are none too pleased with Mi Paisito radio. Too energetic for their dead souls.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437292 06/26/20 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
My first AxiomAir Transformer is coming. That will replace the Chromecast Audio in the living room feeding my Walnut Espresso M2OW via dual monoblock, dual toroid, with Elna Silmic II electrolytic caps Pioneer.

The next two Transformers will be for the basement and office.

I'll Air out my entire house and yard. I'll be more of an Air head than I already am.
How are the Air transformers working out?
How do you have all your streaming setup?
Are you using a central server for digital audio files?
How are you setting up playlists or do you mostly use internet radio?

I'm still on the Sonos system but it is getting long in the tooth. I'm not sure if i'll change this or not but if one fails, i'll be looking long and hard at the BlueOS units.

Last edited by chesseroo; 06/26/20 06:14 PM.

"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."
Re: Force or Freedom?
Mojo #437293 06/26/20 06:21 PM
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Chess, I have not received the Transformer yet. I think Axiom may be waiting to send me the Transformer at the same time as the Force battery I ordered. That battery is on back-order due to COVID.

I plan on using Internet Radio and Spotify. I don't have any of my music digitized. It's a PITA to digitize it all.


A-LFR/1000-8 & 2/500v4x2
1000-3,1500-3
100,160,QS10x2,800,M5x2,M2/3/50v4
Air Force, Freedom
had v2
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