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New vs Old - Tweeters
#438315 09/25/20 03:14 AM
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Searching for some insight from old Axiomites who may be able to shed some light on the new tweeters vs the old. It's been my experience that the old ones are very bright and the new ones perform better on the lower level. When comparing these tweeter side by side, they give a totally different sound. Love to hear some end user experience here.


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #438321 09/25/20 03:36 AM
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It's a night and day difference. My v2 tweeters sounded harsh at medium volume. They were breaking up. They weren't airy either. The v4 sound very composed, dispersive and airy.

They can take more power (larger motor structure) and dissipate heat better with a die cast aluminum vs. plastic faceplate. The plate has a tapered horn built in which improves off-axis response above I think 12KHz or so. The chamber on the rear of the tweeter is larger which allows for better magnitude and phase response at the cross-over frequency.

Andrew did a great job on it. Ian did a great job with speaker integration.


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #438366 09/26/20 03:29 AM
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Looking over the B-Stock and Refurb, it seems like the appearance of the tweeter had a major upgrade from V3 to V4. Can you weigh in on that mojo?


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #438367 09/26/20 03:41 AM
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I don't think Axiom did anything to the tweeter in v3. The changes came in v4. I think only the cross-over changed in v3 to take advantage of new learnings from The Family of Curves. Then Ian laid the boots to Andrew and told him to put more Mojo in the tweeter. So Andrew did and brilliantly so. laugh

Edit: the tweeter was changed in v3 but the changes didn't go far enough. I think a die cast aluminum face plate was added but all else stayed the same. There were some complaints about it and that's when Andrew got to work.

The new imaging and soundstage you hear in the v4 came about in the v3. Then some refinements were made in v4. The white aluminum dustcaps were v3 and so were the magnetic grilles. The M3s (and maybe M2s) got some "real" cross-overs with better parts.

v4 brought improved mid-woofers, tweeters, and standard woofers including the HP woofer. And as I said before, the cross-overs were improved. I think the improved cabinet bracing came with v4. The subs got improved including the amps, sphincters and bracing. The sealed subs got tightened up with improved DSP code and bracing.

And I strongly suspect somewhere along the way, the MDF changed. And as of maybe the last year, the weight has been reduced but the sound has not been affected. I've done head-to-head tests of the heavy v4 160 and M5 with the lighter versions and there is no difference.

Engineering got real, real serious between v3 and v4!

Last edited by Mojo; 09/26/20 04:19 AM.

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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #438393 09/27/20 02:12 AM
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Mojo, how many sphincters did I get in my 600 ;-) I'm guessing that is a technical term.


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #438399 09/27/20 03:54 AM
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Fortunately you have no sphincters in your 600 - unlike my 600v2. Actually, that didn't have a sphincter. It was more like a gateway to another dimension. I stuffed three pillows in that one. Hopefully Axiom removed them before selling it as refurbished or someone got bonus gifts. laugh


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #439141 10/17/20 03:02 AM
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How are those ti tweeters treating you Rebulx?

Here’s another question..... so the “ ti “ series is the original. Or is “ ti “ considered v1?

If they are in fact different what changed between the versions? ( and yes mojo , we know v4 is the most significant changes. ).

I’m just curious what changes were made to create a new version so many times.

Last edited by Kodiak; 10/17/20 03:03 AM.

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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Rebulx #439142 10/17/20 04:04 AM
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Ti is not just the moniker for the original tweeter version. Ti was the original version of M1, M2, M3, M40, M50, M60, M80, VP100 and VP150. I think that was right around 1999. I'm not sure about the 100 and 150. Ti stands for titanium according to Doug Schneider of Soundstage. I am assuming he was told that by Axiom. I have also seen Axiom call the Ti the v1.

After the Ti, Axiom made improvements. Between the Ti and v2, I think the audible improvements were mostly related to the cross-over. Sometime around mid '06, the v2 came out. But some marked Ti are actually v2.

My take, from the history I've gathered over the last 13 years, is that Axiom struggled with the highs on its speakers. They tried to fix this in various ways mostly through the cross-over. The struggle continued into v3 (summer 2010 intro) and didn't end there. The v3 tweeter could handle more power and was more dispersive and resulted in better imaging. But it still wasn't a grand slam. v3 also brought cosmetic, functional and performance changes through aluminum dustcaps, re-designed woofers, and cross-overs and magnetic grilles.

Someone eventually said this shit's got to get improved for real and that was the birth of the glorious v4 in early 2014. Andrew really re-designed the tweeter this time (LOL!). He gave it a die cast aluminum face plate for better rigidity and cooling, a larger rear chamber to lower the resonance frequency further below the crossover region, and a new horn to be smoother off-axis above 12 kHz. v4 continued to bring a whole bunch of other very significant changes as well that I've covered before. Finally with v4, we have glorious everything including soundstage width and depth, focused imaging and placement of those images on the soundstage.

Unfortunately, as you know from Rebulx's experience and I know there's at least one more on this board, some listeners' ears-brains got real messed up from listening to the tweeters of Ti to v3 and now they think those are the cat's pajamas when in reality the land of milk and honey is the v4.

I may as well add that some have said the changes throughout the last 20 years are only "a matter of degree" and they are all "similarly good". I really don't know what those statements mean but my ears-brain say BULL CRAP! I had the v2 for a decade only to be shocked into reality when I lined it up against the v4 (including the sub) and listened. I was robbed of owning the v4 earlier because I took the BULL CRAP as gospel.

Do yourself a solid and upgrade to v4 if you have v2 or earlier. I don't know about v3 because I've never heard it.


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Mojo #439143 10/17/20 06:26 AM
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Interesting history. Thanks. I don’t doubt v4 is awesome.

I think it’s interesting the v4 tweeter you describe it as horn to improve its sound. I’m not trying to start a huge horn debate here at all, I’m trying to learn. ( I’ve read some crazy arguments over what is a horn and what isn’t a horn that got out of control). So, is that v4 tweeter a horn? By my luddite stance I’d say no. Or does it have some horn characteristics in how it operates? Maybe. Or does it even matter. By the sounds of it , whatever was done to it with the wave dispersion plate ( terminology?) it worked great.

I’ve read some descriptions of the ti tweet described as “ accurate “ but not bright. I can’t say bc I haven’t heard the v4 to compare. I think accurate is a good way to say it bc some recordings do sound sibilant to me. Whereas others sound and appear perfect with minimal sibilance or none. So I’d have to say that it’s the recording that makes it or breaks it the most for me.

I also asked bc my brother bought a pair of m60 v1 so I was curious what differences we might have to compare between our different vintages. Sounds like no difference really between the 2.

Thanks ,as always , for the detailed response.


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Re: New vs Old - Tweeters
Mojo #439145 10/17/20 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Mojo
Unfortunately, as you know from Rebulx's experience and I know there's at least one more on this board, some listeners' ears-brains got real messed up from listening to the tweeters of Ti to v3 and now they think those are the cat's pajamas when in reality the land of milk and honey is the v4.

I think I'm that other guy. I don't go back as far as the ti, but I was a huge fan of the v2, specifically the M22v2. I was shocked that I found the v2 version of that speaker sounded better that the v4. I would have just have blamed my being very used to the v2, but I went ahead and bought an A/B switch and did a more formal comparison and I became convinced that the v4 was less "interesting". It sounded like it dropped a few harmonics. I even dragged my wife into it, who was not nearly as invested; and when I did the A/B comparison she liked the M22v2 better too. Eventually I gave up on theM22v4 and returned them for the M5v4 which is definitely the better all-around package (e.g., M22v2 vs M5v4).

Personally I think it's the crossover, not the tweeters; but then I'd have to admit I don't know what I'm talking about. And then I'll double-down and bet that Axiom made the decision to tune the high-end crossover for the M5, as their new speaker. But I have nothing to back that up either. I'm curious how the M3's sound with the v4. Since the M3's have a lot in common with the M5's, I'm betting they sound better with the v4. If that proves true, that would make the M2 the loser; but Mojo insists they're awesome with the v4, so my theory falls apart. Still, I do have some old M3v2's, one day I'd like get some M3v4 and test my theory out.

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