Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler OT: Declaration of Independence

good memory ajax.. i wasnt gonna toot my own horn, but yes, it was me.. go figure.. the passage in question is entitled, 'this is what you shall do'.. its always been one of my favorites. whitman was a very uncommon thinker for his time.

bigjohn

The remarkable thing about the Declaration and the way it molded democracy is that there wasn't much practical experience or role models to draw from, and they got it right in most every way. Living here in Rochester, NY, I have come to learn (local historical library sessions and the like) that the Seneca Indiains and their manner of governing contributed heavily to the ideas that American Government were based on. All in all, a remarkable accomplishment.

Mea culpa, John. I vaguely remembered a thread in which both you and Ajax had offered meaningful quotes, and I got the references switched. I apologize, and of course wish to express my gratitude to you as well for the many insightful ways that you help enlighten me.

I was listening to Glenn Beck today and he talked about the 58(?) ppl that signed that document and how almost all of them paid dearly for doing so. It was something I never really knew or thought about before. Just another thing taken for granted but knowing what those rich men gave up (wealth, family, lives!) for me to live in the greatest country in the world (sorry Axiom! ) really hit me.

/salute to all the names we just don't know

So yeah, it is a great document. But, read it again thinking about a really bad break up. It's pretty funny.

Oh yeah, and we're keeping the land damn it!...

Ray,

You bring up a great point about Native American influence on our form of government. Only recently did I become aware of the fact that aspects of our very own American democracy were modeled to some degree after Native American practices, such as the Iroquois League.

FYI..The following book was the source of my new understanding: Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong. Yes, the title may give the impression of being and extremist book, but don't be fooled. This is an amazing book about how our history textbooks present a watered down version of history, devoid of context, which is critical to truly understanding the evolution of our society. The point of this book is not to paint a good or bad picture of the US, rather to point out that our historical education would be much more rich and pertinent to everyday life if it encompassed the unwashed facts in their entirety.

I would truly recommend this book for everyone reading this post. I will admit that I did not particularly like history class in high school. In retrospect, I would attribute that partly to the problem that this book addresses. Our existing history education consists of dates and facts that have been stripped of their context, as well as references to events and actions that would shine a bad light on the intentions of our forbearers. Rather than view all of our past, good and bad, in its entirety in it's true context, our textbooks mold our history into this clean linear progression to today's society. Unfortunately, in doing so the writers of those textbooks rob our youth of true insight into where we've been and where we are going in this society.

OK...I'm off my stump. Again, this is worth a read. It's not an easy read, both because the of the depth of his analysis and the general subject matter. However, it is still a wonderful read.

Well, As long as we're recommending books.......

Like Turbo, I kinda snoozed my way through history in high school and college. That all changed years ago when I became a WWII history buff.

Because of my sleepy schooling, I never had a good sense of the issues, people, and chronology of the Revolutionary period, UNTIL I read Rise To Rebellion and The Glorious Cause by Jeff Shaara. (If his last name sounds familiar to you, it might be because his late father, Michael Shaara, won the Pulitzer Prize for his book The Killer Angels, a magnificent account of the Battle of Gettysburg. A book which I would fervently recommend to anyone interested in that conflict)

These books are classified as novels because included in each are conversations which, of necessity, are fictional. But each is rock solidly based in historical fact, and they gave me a much better sense of the cause and effect of the incidents of the respective eras.

The fictional aspects of the books help to breathe life into what many (like me ) find to be a dry, dull topic thereby making them interesting and very readable. I had trouble putting them down. If you have an interest in these events, I heartily recommend them.

OK, to get farther afield with historial fiction, I highly recommend Harry Turtledove's books, which are alternate history. The Guns of the South is of course the classic, telling the story of what might have happened if the South had been provided with AK-47s during the Civil War. The WorldWar/Colonization series is a supremely engrossing series about what might have happened if aliens had invaded in around 1942. (sounds silly, but it's really quite good.) The Great War series, beginning with So Few Remain is a story arc of what might have happened had the South won the Civil War (but lost The Great War), with it evolving into a close analogue of Nazi Germany. What makes these books so fascinating is that Turtledove goes inside the minds of historial characters to tell the story. Of course, there are also characters that are entirely fictional who play pivotal roles, but many of the main characters are historical.

TurboDog, the textbook adoption process here in California is complicated. It is disproportionately affected by special interest groups, heavily politicized and worth big, big bucks to publishers. The textbooks adopted by California are automatically adopted by over 20 other states, I believe, so publishers try very hard to win these contracts. I've heard tales of kickbacks and other corruptions among elected officials and gov't employees.

What we're left with in the classroom are books filled with fluff about the roles of women and minority groups in American history, lots of politically correct language, and a sterile listing of bland chronological facts. It is fact that the history of the US was dominated by "dead white men", but the books seem to be getting away from that. There is also little or no romance for bygone eras, no emotional appeal given to the great figures in American history. Everyone knows education in America used to be better, why don't we go back to doing what was done before?

IMO, the proper goal of high school education (for most students) is as much about socialization as it is education. We should leave all that "question authority" stuff for the kids that go on to college.

Now, if only the makers of "The Simpsons" could create a collection of history videos...

Which is why throughout my elementary school career teachers lied to me about Columbus discovering the world was round. My ass. Sure, maybe you should sugarcoat things a bit for children. But don't lie to them. There is no concievable reason for this particular lie. Not to mention the whole Columbus discovered America thing. Even if you want to stay Euro-centric, you could mention Lief Erikson and be a little more correct.