Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater A test question...

I have been looking at the Axiom, Ascend and AV123 sites... It may be that the M80 would not be a right speaker for this test... an Ascend 5 channel system using 340's for the fronts and 170's for the backs, with mounting gear, is about $1300 (including stands for the 340's) ... for the Axiom 60 package, about $1415 w/o a subwoofer... and the Rocket 550 Package (for series II) would run about $1500...

It seems the M-60 as a package would be closer in line to the other two packages...

SO... What does the group think...

M-60's ? or M-80's ? maybe even the M-50's ?

I'm voting for M50s.

kcarlile... Is that better ?

Well, I've not heard the 340s or the 550s, but just off the top of my head, I'd think the 60s would be the right choice. If you were doing the Rocket 750s, then I would think the 80s would be the right choice.

By the way, Curtis. I, and others with whom I've talked, are knocked out by the matching stands for the 340s. What a great idea, and attractive to boot. You've heard me say that one of the things that bothered me about Ascends (actually, since I've never heard any, it's the ONLY thing that bothered me about them) was their appearance. I want you to know that I'm seriously rethinking that position now. Please pass the word to the powers that be, that they done good, will ya? Thanks

I don't really know. I've never heard the M60s. I've compared the M50s and the M22s, and they definitely had a different character. Yadda yadda yadda M22s similar character to M60s yadda yadda.

I just wonder if the M50s would be more to your taste.

Or if they'd get slaughtered.

Just to balance Ken out (ha!) I'll lobby for the M60. Alan Lofft is on record saying that the M60 has a similar tonal character to the M80. Apparently, the M3, M40 and M50 are similar to each other, and somewhat different from the other Axiom models. Most discussion around here seems to center on the M60 as the model of choice; obviously, I don't know whether that is because they are more popular, or because M60 owners seem to gravitate towards the forums in greater proportion.

That would be a very valuable review, IMO.

I also vote for the M60's.

Craig...can you check on the pricing for the RS550MK2 package pricing. From looking at the packages the website, the "on sale" price for the discontnued classics is either $1349, $1549 or $1649 depending on center and surrounds. There is no package pricing yet for the RS550MK2 and I think it would be a fair amount more judging by past sales at AV123. Their sales are very enticing.

The RS250MK2 package is either $1299 or $1599.

A lot of choices on those packages. Those prices are without a sub.

Jack...the Ascends can now be ordered in semi-gloss colors as well. Still not attactive to some....but an option...and does add to the cost. They are working on wood veneer as well.

Curtis - I used the $1349 Package, and added $150 for the Mark II ... in a package price, that will be pretty close... and I guess it is a safe statement that someone looking at any of these packages would figure that $1300 to $1600 is in the "comparable" range...

Also - If the M-60's and the M-80's have a similar sonic signature, the M-60's make even more sense...

Hopefully we will get more people joining in here...

OK. But that $1349 is a sale price, not just a package price.

Totally agree on the M60.

So lets get started.

Curtis, My objection to the appearance of the 170s never involved the finish, or the fact that they were simple boxes. I have no complaints about either trait. There was just something about the proportions of the 170s that I didn't care for. There is no logical reason I can offer for feeling that way. It was just something visceral from the gut.

I look at the 340s and I find their proportions attractive. And with the stands, I think they look great. Appearance isn't that high up on my list of priorities when it comes to speaker choice. As long as they are above this illogical, totally subjective line between unacceptable and acceptable appearance, it's the sound quality that matters. The 303 with or without stands are above that line. For some dumb, illogical reason the 170s aren't. DUH!

Tom, you make a great point about the M60s. They do seem to be the preferred choice of many here, myself included. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they are the best Axiom speaker.

no problem Jack...you are not the only one that has said that about the 170's. The boxy, short, squatty, shape, just causes issues with some.

I think the M60's would be a good match to test vs the Ascend 340's. I've never heard the Rocket 550's.

The new finishes available on the Ascend speakers look quite nice (only having seen them on the website). The 170 is a odd shaped speaker though, isn't it?

Stop picking on them.....don't you have work to do or something?

How about M60s, Vp150, and QS4s (or QS8s if pricing allows)? Using the package discount of 5% and the no-return discount of 5% that comes to $1368 w/ the QS4s and $1458 w/ the QS8s.

Big Will.. the tests will be done in mono or two channel... though I do have a pair of M22's and a 150 Center... this could take us a few places...

Spiff, personally, I like the 170... on the other hand, my wife kicked me out of decorating years ago...

Are you wanting to test speakers of about the same cost?You say the test would be in stereo pairs,why not the Rocket RS550 MK2($999.00+$191 shipping=$1190.00) and the Axiom M80's at $1100.00 free shipping.There is only a $90.00 differance between the two.

That is actually a pretty good question... To start, the $191 you mentioned is an estimate for the entire system... Now add in that most people DO buy a aystem from any of the three companies here... Rocket tends to discount systems around 20-25% ... Where Axiom and Ascend give smaller discount packages, or cheaper pricing individually... I use the typical system price for just that reason, keeping in line with the usual customer's buying habits...

For Listening... as Alan suggested, you want to use mono and stereo... depending on what you are looking for... (tonal balance - mono, soundstaging - stereo.... And if a speaker is superior this way, it will be in a system as well...

Not to sure but was that a no go for the M80's? Darn Craig I might be the only one on this entire site wanting you to test the 80's.If it gets put to a vote I know the 80's wont get reviewed.To many of them darn M60 owners here.

I would not call it a no go at all... In fact, Alan will be the deciding factor. It also does not necessarily have to be a dollar to dollar test... For example, If Alan wanted to know how the M-80's compared to much more expensive speakers, such as the Ref 3's, that is cool...

In fact, Alan... If you get word of a pair of 80's or 60's coming back to the Buffalo Depot, I am in Buffalo almost weekly on business... picking up a pair would be easy...

M60s, Craig.

If the goal is to match similarly priced speakers then...

Then... ???

Another speaker I always wanted to demo against the M60's is the Triangle Zerius. Same price range...Stereophiles Class C or B recommends.

http://www.triangle-fr.com/gammes-2003/zerius-202-gb.htm

Also has a ti tweeter but warmer midrange and bass due to membrane type drivers.

...speakers of similar price silly.

I guess that would be the M60 vs 550's?

RE: Triangle, I'd also love to see a review of those. I have heard that very line (I believe) before and was flat out impressed. If they had a decent center/surrounds in my price range I possibly would not be about to buy Axiom.

oh that (lack of center/surrounds) and they are a French company

craig, also need to keep in mind, there are some of us who don't have a receiver to drive the 80's, and it's been said, they require more room for placement.
dan

TwoDan... Good point. I also just received a Harmon Kardon 630 Receiver... and have the 340's hooked to that and a Pioneer 563 universal player... A lot of the listening will be done with this system, as it is a bit more representative as to what will normally be used. The McIntosh/Modded Denon system is great... but a $6500 front end/$1000 speaker set up is NOT the norm...

Keep em coming guys.... this is good stuff

Inane, I thought that was what you meant... just making sure

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...speakers of similar price silly.

I guess that would be the M60 vs 550's?

RE: Triangle, I'd also love to see a review of those. I have heard that very line (I believe) before and was flat out impressed. If they had a decent center/surrounds in my price range I possibly would not be about to buy Axiom.

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Last I check the zerius is $1200 retail with a street price of $1100 unless I am incorrect...so that would be in the same league as the M80 at least.

I did find the Triangles at a dealer in San Francisco... They are a pretty limited line, but if someone can get someone from Triangle interested in being involved, please let me know...

What volume did you plan to test at? Maybe do three tests - low, medium, loud?

How about including a plain-old joe-schmo type listener? "Somebody with a HTIB" kind of guy.

What will be the demo music? Hopefully not Alannis Morrissette. That seemed hand picked top make the M22s look bad. Maybe the demo music could be a little more diverse this time? A little classical, a little jazz, a little blues, a little reggae, etc...

And since you're assuming the purchasers will also be buying the package deals, are you also assuming there will be a subwoofer involved - and thus included in the test?
I know my M60s do benefit from a little sub accompaniment (sp?).

BigWill... we listened to over 30 CD's with the last test.... Morrissette was not much of a factor... We did Classical, Jazz (Coltrane, Sanborn, Pomeroy, Bennett, Sinatra), Rock (Dire Straights, Pete Townsend, Pink Floyd, Steely Dan, Talking Heads) , Country, movies... you name it. Even Blue Man Group and Van Klampen. 1812 Overture... then movies in two channel.

And yes, we will do with and without subwoofer...

I also think the larger Axioms will help in the size room we use. As you live with speakers longer, you learn new things. One thing I have learned about the ELT-CSE, it is a KILLER speaker for playing loudly... The M22 and Ascend are much closer in Dynamics...

One thing, with TrueRTA, I can post pictures of graphs which will show what level each speaker can attain in dB from the listening position...

Finally... a regular schmoe... interesting thought... let me think of someone. I can picture it now... "Yes, you will not know which speaker you are listeing to, just tell me which is better..."A" or "B" ... "

Even at my age, I'm regular! Don't even need Matamucil.

Jack... THAT was more than adequate information... Actually, finding a HTIB guy who will sit for blind tests and tell you what he thinks is not an easy thing to do...

Let's face it, the reason we have these forums is most people think we are NUTS...

true, true

Yeah, I guess. Maybe you could offer him some beer and burgers or something. Actually, I could go for some beer n' burgers.

Oh, and how about demoing some of the new audio formats and/or some DVDs?

Besides SACD, DVD/A and Cd... any suggestions ? Movie suggestions also welcomed... By the way... listening to movies in two channel is pretty tough on the speakers.

the movie 'open range' is in DTS format.. the opening chapter has a thunder storm that is soooo realistic that it sounds like it is raining in my living room.. also, the next to the last chapter is the gun fight, with shooting from all directions.. i found myself ducking for cover..

give it a try!!

bigjohn

John... I LOVE Open Range... If you look at the original shootout thread, Open Range was mentioned as a new Standard for a subwoofer by our team on February 10 this year... plus We loved the movie... good call, and it will be included....

John,

Had a very nice fellow come over to listen to my Axioms yesterday. He brought Open Range with him. You should have seen his eyes during the rain storm, and the shootout at the end. All he could say, with a touch of awe in his voice, was "It doesn't sound like that on my speakers."

there are two scenes in particular that totally impress me from the shoot-out chapter.

the first one happens early in that chapter. its when costner first walks up to the guys on the street, plugs the one in the head, then opens up on all of them.. there is one part, where the camera is on a close up of him, and he empties out his revolver, and i swear, you can hear each tiny click of the firing mechanism on the gun. and you can hear a destinctive 'hammer drop' as each bullet is fired.. the clarity is amazing..

the second part, is the sheer force of the shotgun blast(they call it a scatter gun}, later in the same scene.. you can literally feel the force of the blast against your body(with a good sub i mean).

those two scenes, and the thunderstorm scene, have made this my favorite demo dvd when friends come hear my system. i would definitely give it 'two thumbs up'( and more if i had 'em)

bigjohn

I'm not sure how much of that will come through in a 2.1 channel test, bigjohn. Unfortunately craigsub is testing only the mains (but using package pricing to determine cost?).

Craig,

I think you would like Ray Montford's "Shed Your Skin" and Diana Krall's latest "Girl in the Other Room"

Criag's on an overnight business trip to Canada, and won't be back until tomorrow night. Don't let that stop you from posting your suggestions and ideas, though.

Curtis. I second the Diana Krall.

Yeah Jack....I saw that it received some nice reviews, so I bought it. When I played it...I was extremely happy.

It is also interesting that she is married to Elvis Costello.

I think he even writes some of her songs.

I bet even if I wrote a song, she could make it sound good.

Hell, she could even make 4'33" sound good...

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Hell, she could even make 4'33" sound good

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OK, i dont get that reference??

i have written many songs to sing on my guit-fiddle.. maybe i need to send her a few myself??

bigjohn

Google it!

I am soooo in love with Firefox's right click "Search web for..." functionality!

jr

OK?? after a few minutes of research, i have come to the conclusion that john cage was an ego-centric, half-brained, wanna-be visionary.. its a cute idea, but in the long run, it just ends up being a vain attempt to salvage a career that never lived up to his expectations.. SHOCK people into remembering who you are.. alice cooper does it much better!!

BTW- this song(or lack there of) reminds me of a todd snider song called 'seattle grunge-rock blues'.. if you ever get a chance to hear it, you will get the similarities.

bigjohn

BigWill, If you look back a few posts, you will see the Alan actually requested I do most listening in 1.0 ... not 2.1, not 5.1...(I agree with him) ... If you think this through, comparing 5.1 channel systems in an A/B comparo is almost impossible.. So you try to keep it as fair as possible..

Next, to pricing... I use system pricing in an attempt to make things fair. For everybody.

For Example, the Rocket 550's are $999 stand alone, but will run about $1500-$1600 in a system adding the 200 center and the 300 surrounds. This is without a sub.

The Axiom 60 package is $1415 w/o a sub.

We then can get into a debate over the finishes... With Axiom, you can get a high gloss finish to match the Rocket's finish for $1000 in a system, or $350 in a single speaker (or is that for a pair ?) ... either way, the 60's then become more expensive than the 550's...

When you use system pricing for standard stuff (rather than custom, for example, in the Axiom line), you keep in line with what the typical buyer is looking for. This seems to be the fairest approach to all...:)

It's $350 per model, which means, I believe, 2 M60s in high gloss finish = $350 for the pair.

At av123, the 550s Mk II list for $1000, the 200 for $600, the 300s for $600. I've got that at $2200. Do they offer a discount, as Axiom does, for oredering all 5?

To simplify things, I called AV123 and talked to Sean.. The Package of the 550 Mark II's, the 100 center channel, and the 300 surrounds will run $1890 delivered. And If I did this right, the Axiom "60" package is $1415 delivered...

So they do offer a discount on all 5 pieces. The list price for that grouping is $1997. So at $1890, like Axiom, that's a discount of 5% or so.

But the 100 center is the lesser of the two they offer. So, substituting the VP100 for the VP150, the M60s, VP100, and QS8s come in at a list price of $1490; 1415.50 with the 5% discount.

I think we can justify the difference in price because of the Rocket finish. So everything is copacetic. (My spell checker actually had that word listed. I know this because I misspelled it . On purpose, of course )

Speaking completely on a personal level, as long as it meets a basic minimum, the finish isn't really high on my list of priorities. I recognize that many others feel differently. So, unless I markedly preferred the Rockets sound, for me, and for me alone, the Axioms would be a better value.

Ascend CMT-340m front pr(w/stands) + CMT-340c center + CBM-170 surround pr(with brackets) + VTF-3 MK2 sub

about $1800 delivered, without the sub about $1300.

Jack... The $1415 price is correct... and I quoted a delivered price on the Rockets because Axiom includes shipping. It works out to a $475 difference for the system price, and I tend to agree, some people will say the looks of the Rockets make up for the price difference, and some people won't. And the Axiom's CAN be had with a better finish for $1690 and a premium finish for $2415...

I would say these speakers compete well in the "value" department.

Any way you look at it, they are good values.

Thanks Curtis. All things being equal, without the sub, the Ascends are an even better value than the other two.

Whadaya mean "BETTER" finish? Prettier, maybe. Better, nah!

How about the secret M80 + 3 M2 package? What would that run you? - about $1375?

Well it's not a secret any more! You and your big.......keyboard?

BigWill makes a pretty good point here... The Package he just described (M80's and M2's for $1375)... and for the Ascend Package, to compare fairly to the QS-8 and RS 300 surrounds, you really need to bump the Ascend package to 340's all around... figuring about $1500-$1550 delivered...

Is everybody in agreement that these systems, ranging from $1400 to $1900 are excellent values in the bang for the buck category ?

Also... There may be a 4th entry...

Craig....fair or not...you can always note the product pricing.

The best part....well for you at least....is it is fun.

Curtis, I do appreciate that... I just want to make sure there is something resembling a consensus as far as packages which compare. You can drive yourself nuts trying to look at every conceivable configuration... I am trying to match Retail, size, driver compliment, weight... for each system.

Curtis, Do you have a price for the new finish options on the Ascend speakers... Axiom posts the price, but the last I looked, Ascend requested an e-mail or phone call for a quote.

I think Curtis makes a real good point. If the packages differ in price, as long as the prices are noted, everybody is free to decide for themselves what fits their budget, and what is a good deal for them.

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Is everybody in agreement that these systems, ranging from $1400 to $1900 are excellent values in the bang for the buck category?

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Well, I, for one, do. Throw in the excellent customer service one can receive from these companies, and whichever way you go, you're really getting a damn good deal.

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Curtis, Do you have a price for the new finish options on the Ascend speakers... Axiom posts the price, but the last I looked, Ascend requested an e-mail or phone call for a quote.

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Actually, I was going to ask you the same question.

Ok... Sounds like everyone is pretty happy. On a fun note, Yesterday I visisted a few additional audio stores, and listened to Energy, B&W and Totem... The Totem Hawk was the least expensive speaker to sound as good as the factory direct $400-$600 speaker pairs we already have here.... it sells for $3200 Canadian. The $1200 Energy C-9 was ... terrible

Wow. That's incredible.

Hey, I've never heard the Cambridge Soundworks Tower speakers anywhere near the Axiom M50, 60, etc, but one of my clients has Tower IIs in a non-optimal configuration. They sound pretty good to me. Anyone heard these in comparison with Axioms? (I know, I should make my own call, but this place is an hour from home, and, well, you know, no chance of audio memory lasting that long...) Just curious, as they would be more in the price range of the Axioms.

I have heard the Cambridge Towers... they are pretty good. I was more amazed at the lack of sound quality of the speakers I heard... Remember, too... all prices quoted were in Canadian Dollars.

Still, $3200 is a lot of money, no matter what dollars it is. (well, fine, I suppose there's some places where a $ is equivalent to US$.00001, but...)

Craig...I thought you were on a business trip yesterday.

You are right... and the Totem Hawks are also quite hard to find in the US... Next week, I will try to find more info on some US easily gotten speakers... Polks, Paradigm...

Curtis, I was on a business trip... but I did have an appointment cancel, and an open home theater store one mile away. No Sacrifice is TOO great...

LOL!

I would like to hear the bigger Totems. I have heard a couple of their smaller bookshelves, and was not too impressed. They do garner a lot of praise, so I wonder if it was the setup. The dealer was not very nice either.

How about some NHT's?

If I happen to run into an NHT dealer, I will do some listening... absolutely

I would submit PSB's and Athena's to the probable list.

OK Craig...we need to plan your travel route.

Athena and PSB's are pretty easy to find... no problem at least listening to them in stores.

Player8 - Adding to the PSB idea... I owned Stratus Silver and Gold i's for several years... in today's market, PSB is pretty expensive for the performance....

I will also be scouting some additional B&M speakers, and will actually try some out if they "make the cut" listening in the store...

I was talking about the Image line of speakers. The 6T's to be exact. They are very competitive for their price I believe. As soon as my M22's come in I will do a non-professional comparison to the Image 2b's. As I was thinking the Athena's may be a little below the performance curve.

Yes, They do have a new line of Image speakers... The old ones were your basic computer designed crossover, technicially proficient, but not very musical speaker. The Stratus Gold i's were (imo) the most musical speaker they have had.... but at $3000 US., a pair of M22's and a $600 Hsu or SVS sub, totalling $1000, matches its performance.

There are several image dealers near me, I will check them out...

Same with Paradigm...

After an hour on the phone with Alan yesterday (great guy... and he loves to chat ! ) We settled on the M-80's for our large 43x14 foot room. Having a 200 WPC Solid State Amp also helped with his decision....

Well! That's a switch. Was the decision predicated more by the size of the room, than by the other speakers you will be comparing them to?

Man! That IS a big room. That's 602 sq. ft. My whole apartment, all 5 rooms, is only 800 sq. ft. You'd feel claustrophobic in my room.

Jack, You Pretty much nailed it. The size of the room, the other equipment, and the belief by Alan that the M-80 was HIS preferred speaker for this.

Nice.

As an update... Rather than use "system" pricing, each speaker will have to fend for itself in a two channel setting. This means the Rocket 550's will have to compete directly with the M-80's, as will the Ascend 340's, though they will get the benefit of the Hsu STF-1 sub, making the package $938 plus shipping ....

Craigsub,
A little off topic
what are your thoughts on the STF-1?

I'll beat Craig to the punch and post a link to the "official" comparison thread over at the Home Theater Forum for his "Small floor standing speaker shootout...." Besides, he's so technically challenged, he doesn't even know how to post a link over here where it's a "do it yourself" project .

Craigs been hanging around over at the Rocket forum too long. The only reason he calls this a "SMALL" floor standing speaker shootout, is because Mark Schifter over at Onix is soon bringing out this Rocket monster. The RS1000 or RS1K. YIPES! MSRP $2700/pair.

Jack, I actually finally got the link part down... but mine are the ugly ones that show the entire web address... Someday, when I am all growed up, I will learn this stuff, too...

The Kid... The STF-1 is a great little sub... For $299, it is tough to beat. I DO want to have a mini-sub shootout this fall... maybe the Rocket sub, and the 125 from here ?