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Hello Chesseroo,

Hope you are well.

With different crossovers the mains will go down to 80Hz and the sub will play the rest, so you are allowing the mains to go down to 80Hz, if you set them to 100Hz the mains would not get the information below 100Hz therefore not sounding as full. You are only thinking of the subwoofer with your statement. Must also think of what range of frequencies is sent to the mains/center/surrounds based on what the speakers can produce.

One driver is perfectly capable of producing multiple frequencies at the same time. Depending on what speaker has the anchoring bass note will depend on where one perceives the sound coming from. If the accompanying bass harmonic of the 99Hz tone is coming from the surround speaker, the bass will appear to be coming from the surrounds. Whereas the 79Hz bass harmonic coming from the mains will anchor that bass to the mains, it will not sound all jumbled together. This is how the illusion of bass coming from bookshelf speakers works, it is all about the bass harmonics.

Shoot, without a subwoofer, your mains would be set to large and your receiver would send all bass information for the small surrounds center etc...to the mains, and if the mains are big enough to do the job, it will sound just fine. Plus you will think you are hearing bass out of all channels. Pure illusion.

DTS encodes a full range to all channels if the speakers can handle it, whether sound engineers utilize it or not is up to them.

Later,

TonyM

I like the stands (and the whole setup, actually). Which model are they?

Hello dmn23,

Hope you are well. Checked the Yamaha, Pioneer, and Denon receivers out, none have the quad crossover of the H/K. That includes the Elites and the top of the line from Yamaha and Denon.

So, it appears that H/K has something unique.

Later,

TonyM

Hello TomTuttle,

Hope you are well. I did not mean to hijack this thread, blah....I was just suggesting an 80Hz crossover might be beneficial. Did not think it would cause such a controversy....I apologize and will shut up now.

Later,

TonyM

TonyM,

I hope YOU are well! I was just kidding around. I think your observations about varying the crossover points are very helpful. Thread-Hijacking is practically an Olympic event around here. I always enjoy your posts, and the articulate, civilized manner in which you convey yourself.

I did not mean to stifle discussion. No need to shut up from my perspective.

I just wanted to give our friend Larry his due, and I perhaps overstepped in my attempt to be clever. Mea Culpa.

Regards,

Tom

Tony, this line of thinking has alot more to it than what is being put forth here. It is not cut and dried and perhaps i'm not making my points as concise as i would like. This kind of topic needs to be discussed in greater detail than my fingers are capable of typing in short paragraphs and a demonstration of what i mean would make it alot easier to get the point across.
I will try one more time.

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if you set them to 100Hz the mains would not get the information below 100Hz therefore not sounding as full.

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This is incorrect as the crossover is not a finite point but rather creates a sloping roll off of the frequencies which only starts at the crossover. The fact that the subwoofer would play information primarily below the 100hz point KEEPS the sound full. Again, that is the point of the subwoofer and crossovers.
If this information below 100Hz is non-directional (as you had previously stated) and cannot be easily localized to one speaker set, then the 'fullness' of the main speakers is irrelevant.

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You are only thinking of the subwoofer with your statement. Must also think of what range of frequencies is sent to the mains/center/surrounds based on what the speakers can produce.

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Not at all.
You haven't understood my previous posts in regards to the capabilities of the other speakers. People are assuming that if they have a speaker with a 95Hz 'limit' that this big hole will exist if they set an 80hz crossover for their main speakers. The futility of trying to use a single speaker to perform dual roles to fill in a whopping 15-20 individual LOW BASS frequencies for an 'effects' channel is way over-emphasized.
Just how often are notes between the small difference of 80Hz to 100Hz occurring in either music or movies? Keep in mind that within human hearing capabilities there is approximately 19, 980 individual frequencies. Do you really think that a cross difference of 20 individual frequencies in an effects channel will even go noticed by anyone with all the extra sound information being emitted by the rest of the setup at the same time?
Self proclaimed 'golden ears' can put their hands up now.

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Depending on what speaker has the anchoring bass note will depend on where one perceives the sound coming from.

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Not if the note is a low frequency, non-directional, cannot localize, sound. You cannot perceive where low bass comes from. Again the nature of low frequency sounds is being pushed aside with this reasoning.

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If the accompanying bass harmonic of the 99Hz tone is coming from the surround speaker, the bass will appear to be coming from the surrounds. Whereas the 79Hz bass harmonic coming from the mains will anchor that bass to the mains, it will not sound all jumbled together.

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Now this is exactly what i mean does not make sense.
How can these sounds be anchored to the mains and the surrounds when the SUB is the unit playing both notes?
It is only located in the same position within a room. Non-directional bass cannot be localized.

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This is how the illusion of bass coming from bookshelf speakers works, it is all about the bass harmonics.

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I've never had the illusion of bass coming directly from bookshelf speakers. The bass is simply present. Do not confuse low end frequency with ranges that are localizable by the human ear.

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Shoot, without a subwoofer, your mains would be set to large and your receiver would send all bass information for the small surrounds center etc...to the mains, and if the mains are big enough to do the job, it will sound just fine.

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If this is the case, that the mains w/o a sub will play all the bass, and you have your surround speakers set to 'small' in the receiver thereby giving them an 80Hz (or whatever) crossover, how can the bass notes below this cross be tied to the surrounds and not the main speakers? (using your previous statements made).

As a side note, i run my receiver w/o a crossover. I use the subwoofer crossed at 50hz for my M60s which are set as 'large' in the receiver.

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Plus you will think you are hearing bass out of all channels.

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Again, do not confuse the bass range in which a localized module can be detected. We are talking about frequencies at least 100Hz or less.

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DTS encodes a full range to all channels if the speakers can handle it, whether sound engineers utilize it or not is up to them.

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This is irrelevant. The point was, if engineers know that surround speakers are not designed for LFE, why would they encode a 25Hz explosion noise for the surround channels?
They wouldn't. Extra effort to put a signal into a channel that cannot play it is still extra work. The LFE would get encoded to the sub/mains depending on the setup. I don't have a single dvd in which my surround QS8s play a LFE note when set on 'large'.

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Keep in mind that within human hearing capabilities there is approximately 19, 980 individual frequencies.

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Chess, you should know better. This statement is only true if you are referring to integer frequencies between 20Hz and 20kHz. There are, in fact, an infinite number of frequencies between 20Hz and 20kHz. There are even an infinite number between just 20Hz and 20.01Hz.

You catch my drift.

Hello Chesseroo,

Hope you are well. I agree with you that one sub is far inferior to two subs or five subs, it is a large compromise to put all 5 to 7 channels through one woofer. An ideal setup would be a sub for each independent channel for perfectly clean response.

Oh, by the way I am well aware of the non directional nature of frequencies 80Hz and below, please don't be insulting. I indicated that it was an illusion, not reality.

Listening to the "Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkel the bass does indeed "seem" anchored to the main M2i's, turn the sub off and you see that there is really no bass there at all, but it sounds very localized to the speaker, even though we know that it is omni-directional. It is an illusion, a trick played on our brains. You can't locate the sub, so the brain thinks all sound is coming from the little mains.

Yes I am well aware of the crossover slope of I believe 6db per octave in the H/K.

Lets agree to disagree on the rest of this.

Have a wonderful day,

TonyM

Peter you are ridiculously enjoyable when you're overly smart.
Rather funny too.
And as reports go, somewhat tall as well.

If you bring up second, third and fourth order harmonics as influential parameters that alter the neurotransmitter levels in the hippocampus involved with making emotional judgements on audio, i may have to track you down and beat you with a banjo. Not a new one though, but some old one that has dried out and lost all of its sound.

Tony, there was no insult inferred from my post but i appreciate your politeness all the same. Your previous explanation of how the crossover system works in a receiver was rather 'low level' and i don't think you had any idea of the more complex idea i was trying to describe at the time. The nature of the LFE was a primary point of the post that needed reiteration. I will endeavor to improve my articulation via typed format.

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I agree with you that one sub is far inferior to two subs or five subs, it is a large compromise to put all 5 to 7 channels through one woofer. An ideal setup would be a sub for each independent channel for perfectly clean response.

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If you ever get the chance to demo multiple subs (for fronts and surrounds) on a single system i would love to hear your impressions.
Unfortunately at this point, the LFE signal is usually sent to only one unit. I don't believe there are any recordings that even utilize a 'stereo' subwoofer signal (specific LFE for front left and right OR for front vs. back) let alone a separate LFE signal for each of the 5, 6 or 7 channels. Someone correct me if i'm wrong b/c at the present time i have 2 subs in my posession and would love to try hearing this.