Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater VP100 vs. VP150 vs. M22 vs. QS4 vs. M3 vs...

I'm currently running "4.1" (M60s + cheap tower surrounds with receiver set to "none" on the center channel so it splits the center content between L and R mains). Did have M2s as surrounds but took 'em upstairs for a stereo system. The "center channel" is pretty clear but just seems a bit dull without a real speaker there, and I'm starting to get a bit tired of having to sit right in the middle. I'm pretty sure I need a center channel, trouble is that I just have too many options. :

1. Buy a VP100 or VP150, live happily ever after (note that I may be moving to a much larger room in the spring, or I would just buy a VP100 and never look back). $220 / $350 US.

2. Buy QS4s or QS8s (QS8s probably too much $$ for now), move the cheap towers upstairs, wire the M2i's in parallel as a center. $370/$470 US -- gets me better surrounds but crappy speakers upstairs. Don't think this will fly.

3. Buy M3s to replace the M2s upstairs, use M2s as center. Interesting... 2xM2s might be better than VP100 but probably not as good as VP150. $275 US.

4. Buy a single M22 as a center. Better LF response than VP100/VP150 so I can cross over lower (but normally not much LF content in center anyways), also lets me play M2 vs. M22 comparison games albeit only in mono. $200 US.

The other worry is that I am using an older CRT TV so it is probably about as sensitive to magnetic fields as you're going to get. I imagine the VPxxx have more shielding than the M2/M22s.

VP150 is a bit more than what I want to spend right now but it really does seem like the right thing to do... maybe will go through factory outlet and play "find the defect".

Any suggestions ? There is a wealth of good information on here (and I have read every single stinkin' post), just kinda tired and looking for someone to help me make the decision

I'm only about 70% sure that I will end up in a bigger room but if I do it seems likely that I will wish I had gone with VP150. It seems like every VP100 owner is really happy unless they are in a real big room. Anyone comparing VP100 with VP150 in a normal size room doesn't seem to see much difference -- but for a real big room the VP150 does seem to be noticeably better.

Personally, I'd go with the QS4s or 8s... While I have not heard them, I have been told that they are just simply phenomenal in drawing you into the movie!

John, the first suggestion would be to bring one or both of the M2s back down and experiment with it as a center. Soundwise it should work very well; the M22 caused no interference with a CRT when I experimented briefly when I first got it. Try it and see; it is shielded and may cause no problem, especially if you turn it upside-down.

John, I would experiment as JohnK suggested. Bring a SINGLE M2 back down for a movie or two. If you are happy with the results, a single M2 can be had for $127.50. A cheap alternative for the interim.

If your room situation changes down the road, purchase another M2 and move the pair to the back. That 630 is 7.1, so it's not like you will be stuck. You could even just use the single M2 in a 6.1 config.

Shawn

Ahh, that's what I needed to hear... I can do some useful testing with the speakers I already have. I knew I was missing something just not sure what

Thanks for the help, everyone !!

OK, that worked well. Having a good center does make a real difference. The dialog is MUCH more clear now and the sound seems much more "solid" across the front, don't know the right words.

I had to put the M2i upside-down on the TV otherwise the woofer magnet messed up the picture really badly. With the woofer at the bottom and a blue screen (no video) putting the M2 on top caused a green splotch about a foot wide and six inches high at the top. With the M2 on its side the green patch was smaller, perhaps 4-6" high but still far too much interference.

I played with the channel settings a bit and found that it sounded quite a bit better with the center raised about 2dB relative to the M60 mains. Interesting that this is also the difference in sensitivity between VP100 and VP150, draw your own conclusions

Here's a picture of the current setup. I'm going to try finding a new location for the CD player (just under the TV now) and put the center channel there on its side -- but the current setup does sound really good now, with no hint of dialog being "up" from the image.

Crap. I was wondering about that with a direct view TV. I guess a pair of M3s is out. How about a pair of VP100s on their sides?

I haven't tried positioning the M2s BESIDE the TV, just on top of it. I imagine that a pair of M2s or M3s flanking the TV would be fine... it's just that in my case the screen is small (27") and I have to sit fairly close, so the mains aren't all that far apart in the first place and I'm not sure having a "pair of centers" almost touching the mains would accomplish what I want.

Then again, all I have to do is haul my sorry butt up two flights of stairs for the other M2 to see how it works. A pair of M2s or M3s would also work fine if they were both upside-down on top of the TV. I think there are lots of options.

I'm tempted to try the VP100 and see how it compares. I guess they put that shielding in for a reason

[EDIT] A pair of M2s or M3s *under* the TV would probably also work fine, they would be far enough away from the CRT to avoid colour fringing.

Yeah, I'd think if it was distorting from the woofer on the top, a pair on the sides won't work so well, either. Now, if you could get Axiom to sell you a shielded 5.25" woofer from the VP100 or VP150 to install in the M2...

I was going to use my old Cambridge Soundworks Ensemble sats as a center, but the amount of (visual) distortion was incredible, even with them about a foot away from the tube. Makes me wonder what kind of damage I've done to the TV over the years with them on bookshelves nearby...

Facts, I have facts !

Did a few more experiments :

1. Moved the speaker so it was horizontal and a couple of inches below the bottom of the TV. No colour fringing but the sound seemed a bit less "clear" than with the M2 on top.



2. Tried putting the M2 vertically on each side of the TV to see if there was color fringing. No fringing on the left side, and a tiny bit when the speaker was on the right side, although moving it ~1/2" away from the TV was enough to make the fringing go away.

I think this is something to do with the arrangement of the phosphor dots on the CRT. I guess it might also have something to do with the fact that I was using a solid blue screen as a reference, hope I didn't miss something by only having one gun active. Will have to try some tests with different images.

I haven't tried listening with the speaker beside the TV yet but will also give that a try over the weekend.

Thanks for continuing the experiments!

BTW, there is a scale to the posts. You'll hit local at 200, then addict (again) at 300. And then you'll stay there forever; witness Peter, who has 3700 someodd.

Interesting. I thought there were more levels (per the FAQ) but when I look closely "addict" turns up twice. Wonder if the FAQ has older levels mixed in from when the board wasn't so active ?
From the FAQ :

"Here is the list of the standard titles and # of posts to achieve them:

0 newbie
5 regular
10 frequent flier
20 hobbyist
30 enthusiast
40 addict
60 old hand
100 veteran
200 local
300 addict"

Ayup. There was a bit of a petition about a year(?) ago to change it, but nothing came of it. All us >1000 posters are bored with our titles.

If they really wanted to mess with us they could change the titles to M2, M3, M22, M40, M50 etc...

That would imply that the higher number speakers are better than the lower number ones. And that just wouldn't be right.

Exactly. Imagine the outrage...

I did some casual testing with the center in a variety of different positions and orientations :

- vertical, to the right of the TV (standing on the receiver) -- sounded OK but the dialog etc. was VERY clearly offset to the right, didn't like this at all

- horizontal on top of the TV, with a paperback book raising the speaker an inch or so to minimize the fringing -- sounded better, but lost the nice sharp "dialog is dead center" feeling that I got with the speaker vertical on top of the TV

- vertical and inverted on top of the TV -- clearly the best so far, with clear sound centered on the TV image

- vertical but not inverted -- didn't try this one because of the fringing but suspect it would be even a bit better because the bulk of the dialog seems to come out of the woofer

So... what does all this mean ? My first thought was "OK, I'm convinced, sign me up as a charter member of the Friends of Vertical Center Speakers club". My second, more sober thought was "hey, stupid, you probably just figured out what Axiom has known for years -- that you need to have a symmetrical driver layout on a center channel speaker".

Think about it for a minute... if you have two woofers surrounding a tweeter then the woofer output is going to sound like it is coming from the midpoint of the woofers, ie in exactly the same spot as the tweeter. Works the same for the VP150... everything should sound like it is coming from the midpoint of the speaker.

Try the same thing with a horizontal M2 or M22 -- the woofs and tweets come from different points and you blur the sound a bit. BUT -- wait for it -- put TWO horizontal M2/M3's side by side and they work like a symmetrical VPxxx speaker with the sound all seeming to come from one point.

Vertical M2/M3/M22 is no problem. A pair of vertical speakers on each side of the TV should also be no problem.

Sorry to be hogging my own thread but this is interesting, at least to me

I ordered a single M2 earlier this evening based on preliminary results; was briefly thinking about changing the order to get a VP100 instead (now that I understand their design a bit better) but after some thought I haven't really discovered anything "bad" about a single vertical M2i center. I do understand the guy who started the "what would happen if'n I took a hole saw to my VP150" thread a bit better though.

John, been following your experiments with interest, as I've suggested the benefits of a vertical M2 center several times over the past couple years. One thing that interested me was the fringing that you experienced in the normal orientation with your particular TV(which I didn't get with an M22). Since turning it over made a difference of 5" or so to the midwoofer, it would be interesting to see how much you had to raise it in the normal position(on a stack of magazines, for example)to get rid of the problem.

Oh, I think it's a fascinating thread. I'd be interested in having you verify that the M2s on the sides of the TV were good, but I don't want you to mess up the tube. I'm curious as to how far away from the mains such a pair of centers would have to be in order to preserve proper imaging.

JohnK -- ask and ye shall receive.

It took about two average paperbacks to avoid fringing with the speaker centered on the top of the TV. If the speakers are over at either side then another paperback is required... seems like the corners are more sensitive to magnetic fields. This isn't too bad really -- pretty much the same spacing you would get if you had a shelf above the TV with the speakers on the shelf.

I noticed a slow, very significant fluctuation in the intensity of the fringing with a cycle of several seconds. Never noticed it before when playing with magnets and CRTs but then again this is the first time I have looked carefully.

kcarlile -- don't feel up to doing those tests tonight (have to find a new home for the receiver so I can stand a speaker on each side of the TV) but will try tomorrow.

If it's an inconvenience, don't do it for my sake.

It's an inconvenience, but about the same level of inconvenience as getting you a beer. No problem

Thanks. Now will you get a pair of VP100s and try that out?

ROTFLMAO !!

No.

Seriously, I don't think the "vertical VPxxx" approach would have any real advantage over using a pair of M22s in the same configuration. It would be interesting, however, to understand why they were designed without a port -- whether it was because "they don't need a port, they're just doing dialog" or whether the air-suspension configuration makes the VPxxx speakers perform a bit *better* than the ported boxes in a frequency range important to center channel operation.

My only reason for doing it would be the shielding. Otherwise, I'd use a pair of M3s or M2s on the sides.

The interference at the sides didn't seem too bad, much less than when the M2s were on the top.

We should probably ping Axiom and ask about the possibility of getting the extra shielding on M2/M3 magnets. That will get us into the whole :

"you should buy VPxxx, that's what they're for" /
"but they don't have a port so I have to cross over higher" /
"nothing wrong with crossing over higher, we designed them that way" /
"but I don't wanna cross over higher" /
"sigh, introduce the VP150P with a couple of vortex ports even though it really isn't gonna make any difference"

...argument.

The only real issue here, I think, is :

- some people seem to be able to localize the sub if you cross over at 100hz

- crossing over at 80hz probably fixes the problem

- if you cross over a VPxxx at 80 hz (especially a VP100) there is a concern that there will be a dip in frequency response between the bottom of VPxxx response and the sub kicking in at 80 hz(no idea if this is true)

This would be a good time for Alan to step in and give us a collective whack on the side of the head

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Once the third M2i shows up I'm thinking about moving the M60s to the upstairs system and playing my serious music there, and running 3 M2i across the front of the HT.

I believe that was the reason for ordering the M60s in the first place, but I didn't have that second receiver when they showed up so I stuck em in the basement (HT) and completely forgot what the original plan was.

I felt that (two M2s + sub) was borderline for the basement, but now that I have an AV receiver and 5 speakers it's clear that you get a lot more "effective" SPL from having 5 speakers going, either with a DVD or with a surround stereo mode. My guess is that (three M2s + two cheap surrounds + sub) will be more than enough for "normal volume" HT and music.

I will try the "2 M2s as center channel with M60 mains" configuration first, though.

Thanks for testing the pair! I think we probably should see if it's possible to get M2s with extra shielding for a little extra dough. I think the M3s are out, since the 6.5s aren't used for any center channel, and so there are not greater shielded models around. BTW, how did it sound?
Oh, and please don't screw up your TV... you'd hate me forever!

Do you have a sub upstairs? If not, I'd probably use the 60s for music and the 2s for home theatre.

I dont think you can really mess up the TV, esp for short viewing... worse case you jsut need to degaus it. And every TV has a deguas cycle when you turn it off, so if the screen gets weird just turn the tv on and off several times, if its too abd you would then need to barrow a degaus tool thingy (forget its proper name). Its pretty easy to use, I loved playing with one when I used to work at Best Buy years ago.

...so after reading thru all of this, whats the concensus on single channel speakers or a true center channel to hanndle center channel duties? If I ever manage to get the funds to finsih off my Axiom setup I need to know if I want a VP150 or (dual?) M2's.

We will need to buy more speakers to get all the answers, but here's what I found so far :

1. Two M2s in parallel seemed to provide more detail than a single M2. I did equalize the SPL as best as I could without using test disk and meter -- ran most of the "2xM2" tests with the center taken down 3dB from the single M2 setting, and went right up to 4dB difference "just in case". There wasn't a huge difference on regular dialog but on the helicopter crash scene from the Matrix there was a surprising difference in the "crunching glass" noises as the helicopter goes in, to the point that I was clearly hearing sounds I hadn't noticed before. Hardly scientific, of course, but I did try real hard to compensate for the higher output of the two speakers.

Just got the tiniest bit of fringing with the M2s touching the sides of the 27" 4:3 direct view TV ($300 Sanyo). The first round of tests were run with the M2s sitting on the same surface as the TV, ie with the speakers below the horizontal centerline of the CRT. I found this pretty distracting since the sound seemed to be a bit below the image -- much more so than when the speaker was on top of the TV (even further off center). My guess is that since the mains are a bit below the centerline of the TV having the center a bit above the centerline sort of balances things out as long as the distances aren't too big.

Moving the speakers up so their center was a bit above of the centerline of the CRT (woofers down) put the center channel sound right in the middle of the CRT, or at least close enough. The effect was good; the sound seemed closer to the image (eg. dialog vs. lips, explosion vs. helicopter) than with any other configuration tested to date.

There were two minor downsides with this configuration. The first was that the sound didn't seem to be as sharply centered as with a single inverted M2 on top. I'm not sure this is really a problem -- 99% of my experience is with stereo so I always tend to associate sharper imaging with better speakers, but in the surround world that isn't always the case. By the end of the testing I still preferred the sharper image but I realize that might be the wrong judgement. Meditate on this I will...

The second problem was that using a pair of speakers seemed to let the center sound move from side to side a bit as the listener moved off center. It wasn't a huge problem but I didn't like it (see previous problem and possible "old stereo fart" factor). With mains 8 feet apart, center(s) 3 feet apart, and standing 10 feet from the mains, moving 4 feet off axis (end cushion on a big 3-seat sofa) made the dialog seem to move 12-15" in the same direction. All the above distances are rough estimates, none were measured, but they should all be proportionally wrong

Next experiment was two inverted M2s side by side on top of the TV, vs. 1 inverted M2 in the same position but centered. In hindsight I screwed this one up -- didn't have two mazazines or coasters to protect the tops of the M2s so used a couple of paperbacks instead. The resulting height was enough to make the center sound seem to be noticeably "above" the TV image for the first time. I need to re-run this test with the inverted speakers sitting right on the top of the TV, no paperbacks.

Finally, I spent some time trying to isolate a mild distortion that showed up intermittently throughout the tests. It turned out that one of my dogs had gone to sleep on the far side of an M60 and was snoring away happily, quite unaware of my efforts to locate "that funny sound".

So... where does this leave me ? Single M2, inverted on top of the TV, wondering if I should change my "single M2" order to a VP100 before the nice folks at Axiom process it in the morning.

Wow. Lots of stuff to think about there. I'm going to try out a pair of M22s when I can get Peter to bring them over (available sometime this week? ), and I'll also check out a VP100 on its side. I'm constrained to side centers due to WAF and a lack of space in my entertainment center underneath the TV.

How about a VP100 on top of the TV with a small vase holding fresh flowers on each side ? What the eye does not see...

On a 27" TV? Naw, she hates it on Peter's 32". We've discussed... If I could set it down lower slightly behind the TV, it would be fine, but something tells me the imagaging would be a little lacking.

Again, very interesting John. Yes two speakers at the sides shouldn't provide as stable a center image for dialog, etc. as one speaker centered above(or below)the screen. What you have is actually a mini-phantom center formed by the two and the image should shift as the listener moves left or right, but not beyond the speaker on that side, regardless of how far off to the side the listener is. The same effect occurs with a regular two speaker stereo setup when it plays a mono source; as you move out of the center the image stays in front of you as far out as the speaker to that side. By the way, my preference remains with one vertical center.

Thanks, JohnK. I just tried two inverted speakers on top again but without the intervening paperbacks. My mouse pad took one for the cause and is now two raggedy-edged speaker pads. Took the center levels down 3dB from single to compensate. I angled the M2s out a bit, maybe 10 degrees each. Yes, too many variables but I was running out of time and will test without the toe-out later.

Probably the best configuration so far. I don't really understand why two speakers seem to show more detail than one (it's that darned "openness" thing again, I bet ) but definitely seems to be a difference.

Removing the paperbacks lowers the apparent dialog location just enough to not be annoying, but after listening to an M2 on each side I am starting to miss that "dead center" presentation. Not sure why the dialog seems a bit "higher" (vertically) than with a single inverted M2 -- makes me think that I'm still getting more output from the pair even after dropping center level by 3dB (mains are below TV center, centers are above TV centerline so they average to a point dependent on the relative output levels). It should only be 3dB extra even taking into account 4 vs. 8 ohm etc..., right ? Have to stop messing with these and get back to work, or I would break out the meter to see for sure.

So, this leaves me with another choice between seemingly unrelated options :

- use 2 M2s for HT center and pick up a pair of M3s for upstairs

- use 1 M2 for HT center, stay with my current order for a third M2, run 3 M2s across the front and move the M60s upstairs

- replace M2 center with VP100, move the M2s back to "mains" duty upstairs or swap M2s with M60s

Hmmmm. Now I know why everyone keeps dreaming about "ordering one of everything and sending some of it back".

is it just me, but from your previous pics, your sub turned into 2 hairy dogs with glowing eyes?

i am sure they get great bass response.

bigjohn

Yeah, I heard the best bass came from having two 12-inch woofers. Why, did I do something wrong ? The bass did seem a little thin after the upgrade...

Ow.

Sorry, rough day.

FWIW I decided to change my order from a single M2i to a single VP100. We'll see how they compare. Looks wise I think the VP100 will win. The inverted vertical centers look a bit imposing on my mighty 27" CRT.

[EDIT] Picture of the two-center setup. WAF would suck.



But the great thing about the new sub setup is finding the right listening position. Normally the trick is to put the sub into your listening position then crawl around finding where the bass is. This set of woofers crawls around for you, and if you snap your fingers they jump right up into your listening position.

Nothing like a shaggy dog story to kill a thread...

OK guys, I have attained HT nirvana and it's not what you would expect...

VP100 showed up today with one corner bashed in, looks like the Purolator guy dropped it on the corner from great height (or with extreme prejudice). I'll ping Amie in the morning to find out what to do. I hooked it up anyways of course. M60s have been moved upstairs (note -- M60s are much more satisfying than M2s in a standalone stereo environment) and I'm running M2s + VP100 + cheapo tower surrounds + PSB sub downstairs.

Pretty darned nice, I have to say. Anyone wondering if the Epic Midi system will be decent for HT shouldn't worry, the M2s sound GREAT as HT mains once you pair them with a good center and even crappy surrounds.

I think part of the "magic" might be finding the right distance between the mains. I kicked back into 2-channel + sub and listened to the new 30th anniversary Dark Side of the Moon and I'm hearing that "$25,000 system" sound again for the first time in years. The M60s would probably sound even better but I'm gonna leave them upstairs for a while.

Don't feel up to any M2 vs. VP100 testing tonight but I will observe that the VP100 looks much better than a pair of vertical centers on my 27" TV.

Here's a picture of my "ultimate HT" setup. I'm REALLY happy with it, even without QS surrounds (next step).



It doesn't look like much but it sure does sound good.

John B
Sorry to get off topic here, but I keep noticeing your signature says "still a hobbyist after 162 posts ; ( "
I must be overly tired to be thinking about this, but have you noticed that hobbyist is spelled two different ways (hobbiest and hobbyest) on board memebers name and discription.
Just found this curious. richeydog is a hobbiest you are a hobbyest.

Yes, it bothered me a lot. I pinged the webmaster (James) and he was nice enough to fix the problem. I think the new string (with correct spelling) might only be picked up when you "fly up" to a new level, so some people probably have the old spelling...

Here's the last email from James at Axiom :

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi John:

Thanks again! We were able to correct the error.

James Savard
Axiom Audio



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: John Bridgman [mailto:johnb@interlog.com]
Sent: September 9, 2004 9:21 PM
To: James Savard
Subject: Re: I hate to nitpick but...


D'oh !!

Thought I had pasted in some more information but looks like I deleted it by accident. Sorry about that. Here's the problem. User posts appear with user name and a "description", such as Newbie, Frequent Flier, Hobbiest, Addict etc...

The "Hobbiest" description should be spelled "Hobbyist", I think. See the extract from my user profile below with red highlight. I only noticed because I just went from "Frequent Flyer" to "Hobbiest". Bleah

Thanks again. Sorry about the lack of information first time.

JB

I'm actually a hobbit. HaHa. It must be getting late. Goodnight.

>>Thanks. Now will you get a pair of VP100s and try that out?

You mean like this ?



You are sooooo lucky...

I ordered a VP100 -- it arrived damaged. Emailed Axiom and two hours later received a shipment notification for a replacement speaker, along with shipping stickers for returning the damaged unit.

Picked up the replacement from Purolator tonight, so until tomorrow AM I have two VP100s. Not sure what to do with them, it's hard to do good A/B testing when you have to power down and switch bare wires every time.

I figured you would want a picture anyways

Hey Bridgman, youre no longer a hobby(i)est. Just wanted to know how your dual vp100's sound in that orientation? Later, richeydog.

Woo hoo !! I'm not a hobbiest, I'm not a hobbiest...

I wasn't sure what to do with the VP100s since my M60s were up a couple of flights of stairs, I was feeling pretty tired, and if I used the VP100s as mains then I still wouldn't have a center channel.

Then the light flickered again. Let's make EVERYONE happy and run VP100 mains with M2i center ! Alternatively I could haul both M2i and VP100's upstairs and A/B them on the HK3270 stereo system.

If I could only do one, which would be more useful ?

I realized too late that with a new VP100 and a "broken-in" VP100 I had a golden opportunity to see if break-in was really true, but alas I left the VP100 playing while I went out for groceries...

Dude... those look pretty good on stands. Now if you still had your M60s downstairs, I'd ask you to try the VP100s as a pair of vertical centers with the M60s as fronts, and the M2s as surrounds.

Too bad they're asymmetrical.

So? If there's two, it doesn't matter!

I suppose I should just buy some of the damn things myself and play around.

Ooh, ooh, now QS8s for mains, an M50 centre channel, and VP150s for surrounds.

Bren R.

For a brief moment I was thinking about hauling down a single M60 for the center channel, but fortunately the moment passed before I got upstairs

Thanks for efforts in trying different combinations. No wonder you don't have enough sleep. I'll most likely go for M60 for music listening anyway and be ordered (hopefully) soon.

Thank you.

Yeah, I really have to stop that. I'm not getting my house cleaned up, and I'm not getting work caught up, but I am learning a lot about speakers

I can still bring the M60s over to visit if that works...

Whether you bring your M60 to my place or I take my KEF to your, I'm okay. However, it has to be 2 or 3 weeks from now as I'm out of the country currently.

Again, appreciate your offer.