Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners New M3s - 1st impression with questions

Just got my M3s yesterday and have been listening to a lot of CDs to get a feel. Here are my first impressions, plus a couple of quesitons.

This is my second system, and I have been trying to keep it as cheap as possible. I'm using a Cambridge Audion A300, bought on eBay and a cheap DVD player, which is, believe it or not, not so bad. I'm using Axiom's bulk speaker cables and some silver interconnects I got off Audiogon. Room is 13x25x9. Speakers along the short wall, about 7 feet apart.

Two most obvious strong points: Treble and soundstaging. The high end is lovely. Lots of presence without being the least bit harsh. The soundstaging is terrific markedly better than the speakers in my main system. I'm a tad disappointed in the midrange, given the reviews and what I'm used to in my main system. The mids are not at all bad, mind you, but it tends to be outdone by the sparkle of the treble. I keep wanting to turn up the vocals, bring them forward. At least on some recordings. Others, no prob. But my only real complaint at this point is the bass. Not the lack of it, as I might have expected,but its boominess. It is not blended into the mids and highs but seems kinda tacked on, if you get my drift, and the detail is muddled over. This especially stands out in contrast to the treble, and so the bass seems like it's from a different speaker. On a bassy track, it can be downright distracting.

Now this bass issue might be a matter of speaker placement, but there I'm limited. What I might be hearing is less the speaker than the reverb in along the back wall. But I can't bring them out into the room any more than they are. It's also possble that the cheapo DVD is at least not helping if not to blame. I plan to bring out my Music Hall CD25 at somepoint to test that possibility, but haven't done so yet.

Now what I don't want to hear is "move up to the M22s." I'd love to, really, but the very existence of this second system is pushing it for me. So what I want to hear is either "everything will gel with break-in" or "try the M2s, which will have more forward mids and eased off bass." But I'm open to any responses or thoughts.

Despite my complaints, I really am impressed by these inexpensive little speakers. With the right CD, they sound fabulous. And did I mention the soundstaging? Vocals and piano spread out over 10 feet of the room!

dont worry everything will gel with break-in


Well.. maybe not but at least that made ya happy. And by the way, how close are they to the back wall?

Things may not "gel with break-in", but I'd give yourself a few more days to get used to the new sound you're experiencing, and to mess with the speaker placement as much as you're able to. If after that time, you're still not happy with the M3s, you may want to consider returning them or trading them in for something else.

Whatever you do, don't settle for less than you expected.

I started a thread about my speaker placement here a couple of weeks ago. It's a bit hard to describe. The speakers are on a cabinet that comes out about 24" and behind them are built-in shelves up the ceiling that come out 12" from the wall. So they're on the front edge of the cabinets, and there's about 3" behind them up to the edge of the bottom shelves, and those are about half empty, creating perhaps a bit of an echo chamber. That really may be my bass problem, but that's my set up. (Is that more info than you wanted? Probably.)

BTW: Right now I'm listening to Stacey Kent and the M3s sound beautiful: full and present mids and the bass is just where is should be.

definitely go for the M2i instead, it sound more forward, has better mid and "more in your face" than the M3. Base on what you wrote either the M2i or M22ti will make you very happy, just don't expect them to have any better bass respond than the M3ti.

As for break-in, I won't even go there. But don't be surprise IF you didn't hear any difference afterward. :-)

Hey judasmac, it really sounds to me like this could be a placement issue in a big way. If you're looking for more midrange and up then by all accounts the M2's will likely give that to you ( although the M3 aren't supposed to be slouchers in this area either ). Base is a bit more of a problem. The M3 are supposed to have more base than the M2's and you may be going in the wrong direction with the M2's if this is your primary concern.

I realize this may not be in the cards but my recommendation would be to add a sub. I just got my Axiom sub this week and I'm using it now with some old mission bookshelf speakers ( these are likely hopelesss compared to the M2 or M3 ) and I have to say the difference is very drastic. The whole sound is very much more authorative and full. And the bookshelves not having to produce the LFE sound more open and clearer, its quite a pronounced change.

Now I can't say you'll have as drastic an improvement but I do believe a sub would give you what you're looking for.

My recommendation would be stick with the M3 or try another entirely different speaker if a sub isn't a possibility. If a sub is within reach then return the M3 and get the M2's. Then when funds permit get a sub like the EP125 from the factory outlet or keep an eye out on Ebay or Audiogon.

The very best of luck, Jag

First thing you need to do is figure out whether it's the speakers or the placement. Is there some spot where you could TEMPORARILY set up the speakers so they are :

~ 6-8 feet apart
~ 2 feet off the ground (stack some small cardboard boxes or something)
~ 2 feet from the wall, with empty space behind them
- front of speakers protruding over whatever is holding them up

You might need some extra speaker wire for the temporary hookup but it's worth it. If you like the sound of the speakers in this position then we just need to play with your cabinet setup to reduce its impact. If you don't like the sound of the speakers there, then think about exchanging for M2 or M22. M2 has more midrange and less bass; M22 has more midrange and about the same bass but a bit "flatter". My first thought is that you sound like an M2/M22 listener with M3 speakers

If you are listening mostly to jazz, chamber music or comparable pop / rock then you will probably be OK with M2s sans sub. Believe it or not I would even include a lot of 70s "progressive rock" in that category... Dance on a Volcano and Echoes sound better than you would think on M2s. ELP-type groups will suck a bit on M2s, as will most orchestral works including most opera.

If you live near Toronto we can swap M2s for M3s and see how they sound.

I have M60s and I had M3s for awhile. I know what you're saying about the M3s - they're excellent, but the midrange doesn't come all the way up to the tweeter. Good for some material, bad for other stuff.
It sounds like you would be happier with M22s or M60s.
M22s with a KLH sub from Costco = <$500.

It's the room, or the amp or processor or source. I had a pair of M3s driven by a 5 wpc integrated tube amp and the mids were exquisite. There was a slight audible dip in the upper mid range but that's what separates the M3s from the Reference 3a de Capos, that and an additional $2,200.

Thanks for the replies. I've done some more tinkering, and it's pretty clear now that the main problem is speaker placement. I hooked moved the speakers to my main system (Marantz 2 monoblocks, Marantz 7 preamp, Music Hall CD 25) and two things happened: The midrange was far more integrated with the treble and the boominess of the bass disappeared. The soundstaging was even more dramatic and impressive. I DID notice some shortcomings I had not before, in comparison to my main speakers (Tangent RS4). More on that in a moment, just FYI.

That experiment leads me to believe that the bass problem comes from the placement -- the little echo chambers behind created by the lowest shelf. And I supsect that the slightly recessed midrange comes from the Cambridge Audio amp's relation to the M3s.

Okay -- so that still leaves me the question of what to do. I'm inclined to order the M2s and just see how they compare, and return the loser in the head to head. If reports are to be believed, I'll be happier with the mids in the M2s. My concern is that the bass boominess will be solved simply by reducing bass output, whereas the better solution would be to somehohw tighten up the bass. But I don't know how to do that without moving the speakers, which won't happen.

Maybe some sort of sound baffling behind the speakers? To soak up some of that bass reverb? Anyone have experience with that sort of thing.

Now, if you're interested the M3s vs the Tangents. Tangents are rare. Sold in the US briefly in the 1980s. I believe I read somewhere that the Axiom is somehow a descendent of Tangent. The one clear advantage of the M3s is soundstaging. THe music was all over the room in a way the tangents couldn't match. The treble on the Tangents also at times had a slight harshness when turned up to a high volume (they're very insensitive speakers, rating 84 or 85, I think). But the Tangents had a much fuller sound, with the bass and especially the mid and treble more seemlessly integrated. But the main advantage of the Tangents was that everything sounded more natural, real. I noticed this first on drums. Drums sounded like they were in the room, whereas on the Axioms they seemed like a good reproduction. Probably another way of saying the same thing, the Axioms by comparison (note: I didn't notice this before a direct comparison) seemed to have a slightly grainly film. So with the soundstaging, it seemed that "particles" of music were all over the room. WIth the Tangents, less presence, but no "particles." Just clean sound. Now these speakers wouldn't be considered competitors in any real sense, so all this has to be taken with a big grain of salt, and overall the Axioms did great, esp considering the price. But I thought this comparison might be of interest.

I really think that the answer for you would be the M22ti bookshelves.

Here, John Potis says a variety of things including the following:

In reply to:

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Moving up into and through the midrange, the M22Ti SE continues to ascend to a level of liquidity that the M3Ti SE can’t quite match. I have to be careful not to step on the toes of the M3Ti SE; it’s a wonderful speaker in this regard. But the M22Ti SE has a more smoothly flowing nature about it in the midrange. By comparison, and only direct comparison, the M3Ti SE can sound a tiny bit grainy. The M22Ti SE does not, as should be the case for 40% more money. I also believe that the M22Ti SE's midrange performs a more successful segue into the treble, resulting in a slightly more seamless and coherent presentation.

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Going up to the M22's would fix the upper midrange problems and hopefully eliminate the grain. I used to own the M2i's before I got my M60s and I know that they do not suffer from the upper midrange problem or the grainy treble either, but if you're going to be listening without a sub, most music really just will not work. If you don't like using a subwoofer for 2 chan (like me), just get the best of both worlds and never look back: M60. It combines the clarity of the M2 / M22 with great, solid, and clean bass. In fact, to my ears, the treble and mid actually sound better on the M60 than on the M2i's. Maybe it was just the fact that there was bass in addition to the mids and treble, maybe it was placebo, but I think it was actually better. It just seemed to be more calm even at lower volumes. They also dissapear a good deal more into my room than the M2's ever did. If I close my eyes and try and "locate" the M60s, I have a very hard time, as so much of the time the sound seems to extend beyond where the speakers are physically located, as a good speaker should..

Hi judasmac

I think it's your room. The M3s' driver is mechanically 'integrated' with its tweeter since there is no cross over between the amp and the driver. The simple x-over is between the tweeter and the amp. I replaced the capacitor and resistor in most of my Axiom made speakers and have noticed an audible improvement. Of course, if you do this your warranty will almost certainly be voided.

I've tried Jensen paper/oil, Audiocap Thetas, and some Solen caps and Mills and Caddock resistors with good results. I think these modifications have taken my speakers up a level.

I found my M3s liked to be placed about 2' from the wall and required some decent speaker stands. (I like the stands from Loveland)

One thing that surprised me about my M3s was the bass output. It helped me find weaknesses in the built in cabinetry behind the speakers - lows caused some things near the speaker to resonate. Move 'em out and let those ports work!

Your Tangents sound interesting. I have some old speakers around which also sound great. My garage system is vintage and uses a pair of Dahlquist DQM 905s which sound ridiculously good. (Kenwood KA9000 slightly modified with a heavy power cord and modern 5 way speaker posts, a Kenwood SW300 sub with a Titanic 10" driver and a 15 year old JVC CDP).

I don't want to diss Cambridge equipment, but I had a D500SE CDP which I got rid of because it sounded terrible wth my M3s. I know there are folks who insist that all CD players sound the same, and I'm not sure whether the one I had was defective, but it was a terrible match for my system.

M2i dont have as much bass as M22ti or M3ti, and stronger midrange than M3ti, if you're going to put them on the shelf then look no further than M2i, M22ti has much stronger mid than both M2i and M3ti but you'll more than likely experience the same boom or excessive bass as the M3ti, so I say M2i is a much better option for you.
Or, use the Tangents as your bookshelf, and get the M22ti as replacement.

HI Judasmac,

Nah, it isn't speaker placement. You are obviously a careful listener: "slightly recessed midrange" exactly nails the M3ti's tonal balance. When I'm being polite, I call it "laid-back" or "somewhat recessed."

And for heaven's sake, ignore 2X6spd and his eccentric theories of modifying the crossovers with his oil-filled caps and the like. I suspect you'd love the M22ti's or M2ti's, although the M2i's really require a subwoofer.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone mention Tangent speakers for 20 years. In their time, they were quite good speakers.

Regards,

This has been very helpful. A great resource, especially for those of us who already bore to death everyone we know when we hyperanalyze our stereos.

I'm am now inclined, despite my protestations in my first entry, to try the M22s. I fear that I'll really miss the bottom end on the M2s. Once you get hooked on this hobby, what's a hundred bucks here or there (and there, and there, and there ... damnit, I tried to be good). I also see a place where I might be able to mount them using brackets on the sides of the built-in shelves, if the brackets are sufficiently adjustable. That would get them away from the echo chamber of the bottom shelves. It also tacks on another $70, but let's just ignore that.

I was up until almost 3 in the morning last night listening to music through my M22s. There's a natural tendency on gravitate towards (or at least lust after) the models closer to the top of the line (M60, M80), but these are easily the nicest speakers I've ever owned and among the best I've heard. Pair 'em with a sub and they're that much better. Sure, I'd like to make the leap to a pair of M60s one day, but I have a tough time imagining what I might be missing.

Gee, that's funny, Alan. When we discussed this a few months ago, you said straight out that upgrading capacitors was a tweak which noticeably improves the sound quality of a speaker. BTW, I take it you didn't like the Ed Gerhard CD I sent you after that conversation since I never heard back from you.

2X6spds:

Don't put words in my mouth. I would never state such nonsense. What I would say is that altering crossover components will certainly change the timbral balance of a speaker, either degrading it or improving it. But unless one has a firm grasp of electrical theory (inductance, resistance, capacitance, etc.) or an EE degree, I do not recommend that novices play around with the crossover components of a well-designed loudspeaker.

Regards,

Perhaps you have forgotten our conversation. We were not discussing changing the values of the capacitor or resistor, or redesigning the cross-over, but rather substituting better quality components than OEM, better quality but of the same value.

I have accurately reported our discussion in this regard. Sorry if sharing our discussion has caused you any discomfort or embarrassment, but I'd like the folks with whom I've been posting for years to know that I did not put words in your mouth or ascribe to you statements which you did not make.

Now all the rest of us need to do is decide whom we believe.

i have two straws in my hand.....



bigjohn

I vote for???????????????????????????? Nah! I will stay clear of this one!

ditto

2x6spd,

You must have misunderstood what I told you. I've been aware for years that hobbyists like to try replacing crossover components with "better quality" capacitors and the like, but there is no evidence from controlled listening tests that these substitutions make any audible difference or improvement.

Reports like your own that substituting components of the same value that are allegedly "better quality" introduce audible differences are purely anecdotal. You might well think that you hear an improvement because you have a psychoacoustical bias or expectation to hear it. Until you can demonstrate in a double-blind test that such "better quality" crossover components actually make any audible difference at all, or a measurable difference, a casual report of such changes has meaning only to you. For anyone interested in seriously advancing the science of speaker design and controlled listening tests, casual anecdotal reports are worthless.

By the way, I did send you a private email about the Ed Gerhard CD. Did you get it?

Regards,

Yes, PMB, that's exactly the position Alan has placed me in and I don't appreciate it.

Don't play the victim, 2x6. It seems you put Alan in a position, as well.

Well, PMB, as far as I'm concerned, you can shove it. I reported what Alan said. If he can't remember what he said, or is uncomfortable that I posted what he said in public, that does not make me a victim, and I sure as hell don't need your opinion as to anyone's credibility here.

Wow, this place is brutal today.

Am I on the right list?

Bush is going to smoke Kerry....you watch!! I don't know if any of you notice this, I mean...what is up with Kerry's wife Teresa? most of the time she either looks like homeless, just woke up from a 16 hours nap, or just got out of work from the Walmart, I do NOT want Teresa as the First lady, dang it!! :-)

Yeah. I'm going to vote for the leader of my country based on his wife's looks.

jr

I'm glad you're not old enough to vote.

hell yea, in my book appearance get 1/3 count, and 2/3 goes to the rest. I mean...I'm talking about the President and First Lady of United States here, not some Joe Schmuck from Mexico or India, they're the icon and leader of the world and if they don't have the look to back them...they ain't going to get my vote! damn right I'm extremely Bias about this particular election!! I voted for Bush 4 years ago, and still voted for him today, fugly people shall not rule!! LOL

In reply to:

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I'm glad you're not old enough to vote.

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And I'm also glad you're not smart enough to crack the reason I'm saying that. :-)

Way to thread-jack a thread-jack. Let's get back to the whole 2x6 va. Alan thing. That's almost as exciting as the election.

Who do you believe? single choice
	2x6spds
	Alan
Votes accepted starting: 05/24/06 10:11 PM
View Results

dang it pmbuko, sshhhhhhhhhh.... :-)

As of now Bush is laying the hammer down on Kerry and pulling way ahead, 169 to 112!! Johnny boy better buckle up and get ready to suck up another can full of whoopass!! LOL

I could be wrong here but I think your going to take a little heat over the poll. Some might view this as adding gas to a already burning fire!...............but I could be wrong!

UPDATE:
BUSH - 170
KERRY - 112

In reply to:

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you're not smart enough to crack the reason I'm saying that.

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Yes. I can see now that I am no match for your superior, Vizzini like intellect and that I am in way over my head here. Uncle!

Note .

In reply to:

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Yes. I can see now that I am no match for your superior, Vizzini like intellect and that I am in way over my head here. Uncle!

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Well grandpa, I'm glad you're willing to put on your 3" glasses and swallow the fact that your time is over. :-)

Order - Order!

Lets have the ground rules!

Are tag-teams allowed in this thread?

What about weapons? Burly wives? Crazed chihuahuas?

Gah, take it to the politics thread, already! Even if you aren't old enough to vote!

Did someone say BBQ?

Mmm, BBQ... for those who live in California and go up the 5 sometimes, there's a really good BBQ place just after the Grapevine near Bakersfield... Willow Ranch BBQ. The sign is a sort of barrel, visible from the freeway just after you've passed the exit. It's on the right going North, left going South. Fantastic ribs and BBQ sauce.

When I mentioned Tangents earlier, I was talking about loudspeakers. Geez, you guys! And to think I was excited to see so many new posts to my thread.

If any readers of this thread recall the orignal issue: I've ordered the M22s and will happily report back with the big M3 vs M22 showdown.

judas,

we care, let us know what you think!
(In a new thread )

Thanks for the tip, kcarlie. I have family in noCal and head that way often.
BTW, if you're heading north, the right hand side of the road would be "east" and the hand side "west". LOL

So I don't have a map in my head. So sorry... I'm trying to remember the exit... it's something about Bakersfield. It's also right next to one of those big truck gas stations (real helpful on the 5, huh?)

"the 5"? We call it "I-5" up here in the other Washington. I like how, when you Mapquest the route from Seattle to Southern California, that middle part says "go 1000 miles South on I-5".

I know, I used "Mapquest" as a verb. Sorry.

Thanks for the tip on the BBQ. Next time I'm driving home early Sunday morning through Bakersfield listening to Gospel music on the local radio station, I'll keep it in mind.

Now THAT's an interesting linguistic thing.. I can tell whether people come from N. CA or S. CA by what they call freeways... In SoCal, freeways are "the 405" or "the 5". In NorCal, freeways are "580" or "5." Now I can add other data... what do you call non Interstates in Washington?

We just call them by number. I've always mourned the fact that we don't have "The Ventura Freeway", "the Sunset Highway" or other colorful references to our roads.

Relative to State Routes (non-interstate freeways), usual people say just the number (for the big, congested ones that are on the traffic report every day anyway) or State Route 7 or SR 7.

Ken, Willow Ranch is in Buttonwillow.

Here's some info.

Sweet. Right. Forgot.

Actually, I don't know any normal human being who uses those colorful names. They seem to be reserved for traffic reporters, so if someone's new to the area, they can't undesrtand what the hell is going on. It took me forever to figure out which freeway the Nimitz is.

i never wish to experience any of what ya'll are talkin about. we have 'the mertzon highway', and it goes from san angelo to mertzon.. then we got 'the road that goes to dallas' and 'the road that goes to austin', and i almost forgot, 'the road that goes to odessa'. yup, that just about covers it.

i got a funny e-mail the other day that said, the biggest thing we got to a traffic jam in san angelo, is 5 trucks stuck behind a 1 ton pulling a horse trailer on mertzon highway. yup, thats about right.

bigjohn

My wife and I once spent an hour sitting in a huge line of traffic on an isolated highway. When we got up to the source of the backup, it was a broken stoplight. In a (literally) one stoplight town. We were so pissed. That was the day it took us over 12 hours to get from Arizona back home. We hit that backup, another where there was an accident that put us on a 2 hour detour, road construction at the border that held us up for an hour...

"Actually, I don't know any normal human being who uses those colorful names."

My dad still does. He's a soCal native and was a trucker here for 35 years or so. But I reckon he ain't too normal either.

Whoops! Didn't mean offense...

Do you remember the name of the small one stoplight town?

Nope. I wouldn't even call it a town.. a fire station, a knick knack store, and 2 other stores. It was an intersection.

You have the "MixMaster" in Dallas...I managed to survive that, and the people I was visiting said I should go and get a t shirt. Apparently it is a very dangerous interchange, and there are actual souveniers!!!