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#73394 - 12/22/04 11:48 PM Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
337 Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1
The question I have is why do I have to turn my receiver up so far to be able to hear the voices and faint sounds clearly? My receiver's volume starts at -70db and goes to about +10ish (I think) I have performed the Auto setup with the supplied mic from Denon. But I still have to turn it up to -15- -10db's to hear the voices clearly. After the auto setup I found myself straining to hear the voices and Bass. So I manually went in and lowered the signal to each of the speakers other than the center channel. It helped but it doesn't sit well with me to have to crank it as high as it can go to hear well. I also had to maually set my sub to the loudest it would go to acheive the bass I am looking for. Am I wrong to thing something is wrong if I have to crank the volume up from -70db to the teens to get it where it is clear?
I did get the EP350 Sub because of the size of the room. The room is 15X30. Although I am only sitting ~10-12ft from my screen and front speakers. I used the super thick monster cable on the entire set-up. I think it was 12 or 10 gauge.
Another note, I have to set my receiver to 5 channel stereo to hear my cd's and tuner well. Is this just a configuration problem or do I need an Amp? Thanks for any help you can provide.

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#73395 - 12/23/04 12:30 AM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
bray Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1805
Loc: Colorado
It has to be a configuration problem. I have almost the same set-up except with 60s and typical dvd volume is -30 to -15, (-15 being very loud) depending on the type of movie I'm watching.
Ditch the Denon auto eq. It blows. If anything, keep the distance it set if it seems to be correct (check with a tape measure) and you might want to keep the levels it set for your speakers but definetly ditch the eq part.
You also might want to check all your connections, and then double check them. Because of time constraints, I hired a H/T installer, and he screwed a couple things up that I had to fix. My point is, its easy to mis-plug things even if you know what your doing.
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#73396 - 12/23/04 12:43 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
SirQuack Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 01/29/04
Posts: 13565
Loc: Iowa
I have the same receiver and M60's, EP350, VP150 and Qs8's and don't have this problem. I admit, I was a little confused at first when I first turned on the Denon for the first time and was not hearing anything. I would say for CD's I usually listen in pure direct mode anywhere from -35db to -15db depending on the cd. I rarely go into the +db range, unless the wife is gone. For movies, it also varies, I would say I'm usually in the -30db to -20db range.

Did you place the mic in the primary listening position, preferably on a camera tripod? You can hit the main Round button on the remote and it will cycle through each speaker and show you what level the autosetup used. I think for movies my mains/center are on like +5dB, the sub is like -2dB and the surrounds like +6dB for my current room... I also have the mains set to Small and use a 80hz crossover for the sub. I have the sub volume at about 12'o clock, and the sub crossover cranked all the way clockwise so I'm using the receiver crossover settings.

I would try rerunning the auto setup again, and then check to make sure the mains are set to small.

Something doesn't sound correct. My Denon/Axiom combination just brings tears to my eyes, it sounds so good.
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#73397 - 12/27/04 08:13 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
Donincos Offline
buff

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Colorado Springs
I have some M50's and a Denon 1905. I also have to turn the volume up to about -4 or -2 to get the volume I’m looking for. I don’t have a sub yet and I’m sure that will help my situation…….allot. The room opens up to the kitchen and dinning area and is about 2600+ cubic feet. But I was wondering if this may be a characteristic of the M50’s.

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#73398 - 12/27/04 09:16 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
There shouldn't be more than 1 or 2 dB difference between M50s and M60s. I guess dialog might be a tiny bit more clear on the 60s because of the midrange driver so again you might need a couple of dB extra but that's it.

Don't read too much into "having to crank up from -70 dB" -- most receivers go up to ~+10dB but very few go down to -70. I find there is a fair difference in required volume setting from one input to another... listening to FM Tuner I'm normally between -30 and -20, but listening to DVD / CD I need to crank up another 10dB to get roughly the same volume. CD "background" is around -20dB, CD/DVD "listening intently" is about -10dB and CD/DVD "cranked" is up around 0dB on the volume control.

Note that depending on what the auto-eq did to your per-speaker settings you might have another 10dB either way, ie if it turns most of your channel settings to -6dB you're going to have to crank the volume control up 6 more dB to get the same sound you had before.

I would set all the channel settings back to zero, disable the auto eq, tweak the sub's volume control until it sounds about right and use that as a starting point. I'm guessing the auto-eq got you...
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HT: M60ti/VP180/QS8, SVS PC+ 20-39, EP500
Music: M5HP, Sierra-1, M40ti
Idle: M2ti, M3v4, VP100
John

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#73399 - 12/27/04 09:44 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I just went over to confirm my last post. Here's the details ;

HK 630, M2, VP100, PSB 6i sub, crap surrounds. Room is 13x23x8, opening in a few places to an equally large area. Music : "Return of the Giant Hogweeds" (Genesis) playing on DVD player connected via digital coax. I picked the song because it likes to be played loud.

Stereo (2.1), ie M2 + sub only : -3dB sounds just about right for "listening to enjoy", ie standing 10 feet away, not trying to talk or anything, just enjoying the song.

Switch to PLII or Logic7 : -6dB for same perceived volume. Switching to Neo6 : -7dB for the same perceived volume. I think that's the same thing you hear when you say you need to kick in surrounds to hear CDs properly ?

If I had M50s I would expect to reduce the volume a few more dB because the M50s are more sensitive than M2s. I don't think you have an equipment problem but it does sound like you might have an eq and channel balance problem. Just a guess though -- best of luck.


Edited by bridgman (12/27/04 09:51 PM)
_________________________
HT: M60ti/VP180/QS8, SVS PC+ 20-39, EP500
Music: M5HP, Sierra-1, M40ti
Idle: M2ti, M3v4, VP100
John

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#73400 - 12/28/04 12:07 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18044
Loc: NoVA
I don't have this issue with my M50s/Harman/Kardon AVR-525. I do have a sub, and my room is around 2500 sq ft. On the other hand, I may use lower listening levels than y'all!
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#73401 - 12/28/04 01:11 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
bridgman Offline
axiomite

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 6024
Loc: Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada
I always wondered about that. Lots of people on the board own SPL meters used for fine tuning channel balance and placement, but nobody seems to use them to do what they were designed for; measure how loud we are playing our music.

For reference, M2+sub, Return of the Giant Hogweeds again, -3dB on the volume control, 10 feet from the speakers in a 13 x 23 foot room... 96-98dB, C weighted at the loudest part of the song where the vocals start :

"Turn and run... nothing can stop them..."

This is as loud as I would ever play -- typically 10dB lower for comfortable listening, 20dB lower for background. Something like 84-86 dB for comfortable rock listening, ~75dB for background. Same settings for jazz but the average SPL tends to be lower... less dense instrumentation plus less hot recordings, I guess.

Can anyone else offer up typical listening SPLs ?
_________________________
HT: M60ti/VP180/QS8, SVS PC+ 20-39, EP500
Music: M5HP, Sierra-1, M40ti
Idle: M2ti, M3v4, VP100
John

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#73402 - 12/28/04 01:33 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
dmn23 Offline
aficionado

Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 649
Loc: Nashville, TN
I'm in a small apartment and my listening position is about 7 1/2 feet from my M22s. At that distance (and in that room) 75-80db is fine. Anything much farther north is about the point where it goes from pleasantly loud to unnecessary.
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M22ti mains, EP175 sub, VP150 center, QS4 surrounds

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#73403 - 12/28/04 04:06 PM Re: Denon AVR-2805 and the Epic 50 HT Question
alan Offline

connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3256
Loc: Toronto/New York/parry Sound
Bridgman,

Your measurements of typical SPLs and peak levels exactly parallel my own measurements, using either M22ti's or M80ti's at the front left and right, plus QS8s, VP100 and a sub. Room is about 21 x 13 x 9 ft. I find running peaks over 100 dB SPL to be uncomfortably loud and even when I do live measurements of unamplified music in large concert halls, it rarely peaks over 100 dB SPL. Your measurements (and mine) correspond very closely to subjective assessments of sound levels by listeners of different ages and gender.

Most term 85-87 dB SPL "quite loud," and 95-97 dB SPL "very loud." But of course there are all kinds of variations in taste and preferred sound levels. But the levels you measured and I measured are very typical.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)

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