Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo New proud owner of a pair of M60ti...

Hi, 'all
I've been researching on the internet for a good tower speakers and found lots of very good reviews for Axioms.
I'm from Puerto Rico so ofcourse there are not any Axiom dealer here but I do audition Bose 701 ( docking ) the Paradigm studio line and the Reference 20's.
I was very impressed by the Reference 20, but to put things in perspective, I audition them in a top-class listening room with preamp & amp in the 5 figures price!

I read reviews that place Axiom very similar or even above the Reference line of Paradigm and at a significant lower price, so I could not resist and order a pair of M60ti. I'm a 80% music & 20% HT.
I've been reading this forum a couple of weeks before getting the M60ti. I'm aware of the importance of "break-in" and that the M60 are a little harsh on the highs. Especially on not that great CD recordings. I found both of them to be true. Listening to CDs & DVD concerts like James Taylor, Sting(the new one) and some Dave Grusin & Nora Jones CDs ,all great recordings, I found them to have great bass and mid and even highs, but I find a harsh funny coloration on the mid-highs (not familiar with audiophile terminalogy ;->) . I do LOVE the sound of Eric Clapton (DVD Concert) guitar tho, also, I have a couple of clasical music DVD (beetoven 9 shyphony & others) and the speakers really bring live to them, they have an excellent punch and the harshness is a lot less present.
I've already put like 15-20 hours on the speakers and the harshness had been controlled abit. but there's plenty still for my taste. I'm driving them with a Denon AVR 3300. Does anyone have a similar setup ?
I've been contemplating on buying a good 2ch. amp or preamp (or both) just for music.
Any opinions on how to sweet the harsh sound? Positioning? I do have a small room 12x11x8.5...
My!...this is getting long,
Bye thanks,

Jaime

My advise is to give them some time.

I too found them a little harsh, especially on some female vocals. I have a Denon 3802 and listen to music in direct mode 99% of the time. Occasionally I would switch to stereo and adjust the tremble down a notch or two. I only did this on a few cd's, as most sounded fine.

I don't know if the M60's changed with more hours or my hearing changed (maybe a little of both), but I no longer hear a harshness. I've had them a few months and I wish I could tell you how long it took to "break them in" but I can't.

All I can say is every time I listen to them they seen to sound better than the day before. I am still amazed at the way they sound.

bill

Typically it is the human brain that needs to break in, not the speakers. If a tweeter is made of aluminum, it does not change the more you play a speaker and if it does not change, neither does the high end sound. Perhaps if you took a hammer to it and changed its shape dramatically, then you certainly would have 'break' in.
But hey, who am i to argue against the crazy nuts that buy $1200 electrical units to run charge through things like cables to 'break' them in. One can never argue with a fanatic.
They are fanatic.

I agree, One have to "learn" what good sound is. I used to have JBL Control 5 speakers, famous for beeing harsh. I do really like my Axioms, actually, yesterday I went to the Bose store and listen again to the 701 to compare and they were not even close as how good the Axiom sound.

I used to play cello most of my young life, I have an below average cello, and that's the sound you get used to. One time my profesor lend me his cello for a day to take home and play, it's a cello with a sound and price tag as big as a nice house mortgage, and I did not like the sound at first, Then you learn what "good" sound is.

Jaime

Hi Jamie, i just received my new M60ti's yesterday. I'm currently powering them with a Denon DRA-435R which is about 10 years old but still working very well. I also did a lot of research on the Internet and finally settled on Axiom due to all of the positive reviews I've read and the posts on this message board.

Maybe it's my lack of audiophile understanding but I'm just a tad let down by the sound I'm hearing. It's not enveloping me the way I thought it would and I'm not getting the WOW factor I had hoped for. I've listened to Sheryl Crow, Norah Jones, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and Pearl Jam trying to get a good sense for how the speakers will handle the music I typically listen to. I noticed specifically with Led Zeppelin that Robert Plant's vocals were drowned out by Jimmy Page's guitar which I attributed to a very strong mid range sound. And there were times when specific drum sounds that have been burned into my memory for all eternity (due to heavy rotation in teenage years) just didn't come across the same way on these speakers. Almost like they were behind a wall of midrange sound. I also have a problem with the soundstage they are presenting, I just don't hear it. I close my eyes, put on Pink Floyd and don't get that airy sense I've experienced in the past with my Boston Accoustic bookshelves. If I had to summarize what is bothering me it would be that the sound is flat and midrange and it doesn't give me the grand experience I was hoping for. Maybe that will change as they break in, which is why I keep playing them for hours on end.

Perhaps this quote from a review I read on the M80s sheds some light on the issue "Don’t expect to just plunk the M80Tis down and sit back to enjoy stellar sound. You’ll need a large room with lots of space within which to maneuver these substantial towers and a good-quality amp in order to make the best of the M80Tis' bass. Placement especially is a make-or-break factor here, folks." Trouble is I can't build a house around a set of speakers trying to get them placed right.

Hoping things get better.

Hi JaimeG,

Actually, the sound of the M60ti's won't change: "break-in" is rather a red herring. What you are really "breaking in" is your own set of ears, accommodating new speakers with a different spectral balance with different dispersion traits.

If you find the M60ti too analytical or "bright", call Joe Vassallo, our service manager, on the toll-free line and ask him to mail you a set of resistors that simply clip onto the lead to the tweeter. There is a 1.4 ohm value and a larger one. The former reduces the tweeter output by a dB or two; the latter attenuates the output even more. He will tell you how to pop out the tweeter and clip on the resistors.It's easy to do and no soldering is needed. I don't use the resistors on my M22ti's but I do use a set on the M80ti.

Regards,

The other thing you need to look at is speaker placement. The M60s need to be about 2 feet away from the walls, and just slightly toed in. (At least that is what I found works best for my M60s) Don't forget to check that all 4 of the screw caps on the connections are down tight, and make sure that the bridging straps didn't slip out.

Michael

Hi Alan.

I have a pair of M60ti's. Interested in hearing a little more detail re Joe Vassallo's resistor "fix", from you and others who have gone this route. Impact on sound...size of resistor used...any downside using this "fix"?

Cheers,
Joe

I know this is intended for Alan ...
I won’t call it a "fix", nothing is broken.
I just find that my m60 are too bright for MY taste, maybe my small room and tile floors contributes to this, or the fact that my last set of speakers were small dull sounded bookshelf’s (JBL Ctrl. 5) with 4db bass boost , hearing loss?? Humm, don’t know.
BTW: I do am very impress with the bass, midbass and mids, I have perfect-pitch and I could tell very lows notes on a acoustic bass down to the A to E on the m60, impossible to do with bad or even average subs or speakers aka. Bose, Infinity, JBL
I do find that the sound of the M60 is really big and definitely not in a bad way, I just have to get used to.

Jaime

Hello Jaime
From your post it sounds like the problem is not with the speakers but with the acoustic properties of your room. Here are a few sites which offer acoustic treatments for your room. You may want to check them out.

http://www.foambymail.com/Products.html
http://www.soundprooffoam.com/
http://www.auralex.com/main.asp

Good luck! Enjoy those beautiful M60s!

I'm replying to myself in order to give an updated account of my M60 experience. In my last post I indicated I was a bit let down by the sound I was getting. I have to admit I thought about returning the M60s and I love the fact that Axiom has given me that option but in the end it just didn't seem right. I have many, many CDS that make these speakers sound absolutely fabulous and I have a few that perhaps someone needs to go back and remix.... I'm listening to Wilco right now and it's completely apparent to me that Jeff Tweedy or whomever mixed this really knows what they are doing. An old Heart CD I have sounds amazing. Radiohead, Pink Floyd, both as you'd expect top quality stuff. But then there are some clunkers and I'm not sure why they just don't sound good to me. U2 comes to mind, but that is actually what turned things around for me. I went to Circuit City andI know it's not an optimal listening enviornment but at least I can play around with the equipment without pestering a salesperson. I tried each of their Polk speakers from the R50 on up and I found that the higher in price I went the worse they seemed to sound with U2. And that did it for me. If I didn't like the sound of U2 on the $1000 polks I doubt I'd ever like it on anything other than the car radio where I listen to it most. Bottom line is don't be afraid of the M60s because of my opinion. In the end I found that I really do enjoy them, it just took awhile for me to figure that out

I have used the resistors from Joe on my M60's and find that they changed the sound very little. I had an issue from my ears being fatigued when listening for more than 15-20 min at a time. It "fixed" my problem. I didn't have another set of M60's to A/B with so I didn't notice anything missing. Hope this helps. Only thing you will need to operate will be a hex wrench.

In my case, I was expecting some ear fatigue but did not get any so far. Even in New Years Eve that I start listening to music at high volumes from the afternoon 'till almost sunrise, I did not get any significant fatigue. I do used to get some from my old speakers.

I ‘m not looking forward to dramatically change the tone of the M60ti with the resistors, but a very subtle reduction in high’s freq. After all, I’m starting to ‘mold’ ears to the speakers. I was listening to some Tower of Power cds and the brass was quite amazing! Also on the Blues Brothers DVD movie the sound & recording was surprisingly very good on the M60ti… especially the brass.

BTW: thanks to 2x6spds for the links, for some time I was trying to find good sites on acoustics.

Jaime

Paul, I think that your most recent reply is on target. I've tried to point out in the past to some who have termed the Axioms too "bright" or even "harsh" on some recordings that what they were hearing was an accurate speaker reproducing a poorly recorded performance(possibly intentionally mixed that way so as to sound more impressive on mediocre equipment). As you imply, the more accurate and revealing a speaker is, the worse a poor recording will sound. Receivers which have extensive equalization provisions, or a separate graphic equalizer can to a degree help with such recordings.

Absolutely agree… Last night I was listening to a CD of John Lee Hooker's compilations of different songs. The quality of the recordings of each songs vary from the sublime to boxy-75-phonograph type of sound. With the M60ti is very apparent the difference in quality of the recordings. I was not that aware of that with my old speakers.

Jaime

JaimeG:
Maybe its my ears but I've had my M-60's for 2 months now. They have been sounding better each time I listen to them. Whether its jazz, rap, rock or Salsa. Bro, they sound great. I have them in a H/T set up as well with Q-8s as surrounds. Hope all is well in PR. My familia is from Mayaguez.

Thanks Alan for your suggestion to get the resistors for my M60, I just installed them and FOR ME it made a big difference!, now I found my M60 sound really 'SWEET'. It was a very simple installation, you can’t do wrong. Tho, I was not sure what happens if the resistor's clip or wire make contact with the tweeter magnet so I cover the whole resistor, wire & clips with electrical black tape just in case.

Hi Jamieg,

I'm delighted the resistors worked out for you. It's not dramatic but our ears are extremely sensitive in the midrange and treble, so even a reduction in output of a few dB will make a noticeable difference in the tonal balance.

Regards,

I am considering installing the resistors on my M60 tweeter's as well.

In an earlier post, Alan made reference to two different sized resistors that could be installed (a 1.4ohm I believe, and an unspecified larger size). Do you know which size you installed?

"Sounds" like your very pleased with the results. Have you noticed any negative impact on audio quality since installing the resistors (i.e., loss of imaging, air, space, anything else)?

Joe

I'm curious to see how those resistors effect the frequency response...any graphs available?

Hi Alan,

I am considering installing the resistors in my M60's.

A couple of quick questions as a follow-up to JaimeG's post.

In an earlier post, you stated there were two sizes of resistors that could be installed, a 1.4ohm value, and a larger one, which you didn't provide the ohm value for. Could you give the ohm value for the latter one please?

You mentioned you've installed resistors in your M80's. What size/value did you use? Other than attenuating the treble, is there any negative impact on overall sound quality (i.e., imaging, air, space, etc.)?

Joe

Hi Joe90,

I installed the resistors labelled "7W1R8", which are 1.8 ohms, on both pairs of tweeters in my M80ti's. These provide a slight attenuation of tweeter output. The resistors that impose greater attenuation are labelled "7W4R1", which are 4.1 ohms. I haven't tried those because the 1.8-ohm resistors were enough.

When I instantaneously A/B'd the M80s with the M22ti's (no resistors installed) on the same program material, there seemed to be no reduction of "air", "space", or imaging.

What I did notice was that on jazz selections with well-recorded percussion, the brushed cymbals on the M22ti's had a little more "ring" to them than on the M80s. The cymbals on the latter were slightly muted. Overall, I was pleased with the tonal balance on the M80s after installing the resistors but I use them in a smallish room, so they may not need them in a bigger room.

Regards,

Hi Joe90:
Actually, I don't know whether they send me the 1db or +2db resistors. I do notice a relatively big difference. When I get home today, I'll write the resistor 's number and post it here so that maybe Alan or Joe tell me which one is it.

What I did not get used to from my 'originals' M60 sound was the lower end freqs of the tweeter. In my opinion, they overwhelm the higher freqs, or for that matter, the whole spectrum of sound from the speaker. Could be just that my ears are kind of damage on a particular Freq... (in college I play keyboards on a loud pub's R&R band, ...darn guitarist :-O )

In terms of the impact with the resistors, like I said, there was a difference , for me.
I'm not used to audiophile terminology (also, this is my 2nd lang.) but I think I get the picture... :

"Imaging" - I think improved , instruments seems abit clear and discernable.

"Air" - Not clear on what it refers to , but I think has something to do with the tone & color of singers voices maybe... I think this decrease abit I particularly notice this on the Diane Krall DVD her voice seems a little less forward but on the other hand, her voice was not overwhelm by the drummer's cymbals in particulars passages...

"Space" - hum? ...see Imaging :-)

"Anything else?" - Yes, I feel the music gain a little more punch and maybe a little less ear fatigue. About ear fatigue, I do get that from my old speakers and Car's stereo, but did NOT from my M60 'stock'. Also, the very high Freqs. ei. (hi-hats & shakers... ) seems to be crystal clear now. Kind of weird when you know that actually the tweeter dbs were lowered. Overall, the sound seems more warmer now. but still brass are very punchy & clear and definitively NOT muddy.

Well, I guess this will give you a rough idea of the resistor impact-results on the M60. I do had to mention that the room where the M60 lives (like Alan said) play a very important part of his sound ... Also, this is all relative, like wine , every one has his own taste for it.

Jaime

Thanks for your detailed response JaimeG. Much appreciated!

Cheers,
Joe

Thanks for the info Alan. My system is set-up in a smallish room also, so I'm looking forward to trying out the resistors on my M60's.

In my last post, I forgot to ask your opinion re JaimeG's wrapping the resistor and leads with electrical tape, as he was concerned about them being so close to and/or touching the tweeter magnet. Is this anything to be concerned about...is the taping necessary?

Cheers,
Joe

Hi Alan:
I just check my resistors … the # is 7W2R7 .
I guess they fall somewhere in between but more close to the 1.8 than the 4.1 Do you know the actual ohms?
…I just know they are perfect!!
Thanks

Jaime

If I read the number correctly 7W2R7 means 7Watts 2.7 Ohms.

How about some Zen or Crescendo caps and 8 gauge inductors to go with that? Is there a crossover upgrade available like that?

Hi,

Yes, there is a middle value of resistor that I don't have--the 2.7 ohm resistor. By the way, JamieG, have you tried covering that tile floor with an area rug?

When I read you had tile floors, I thought "Uh, oh, trouble. . ." They are very reflective and rugs can nicely absorb too much high-frequency reflection.

Regards,

The room has tile floors and 4 concrete walls (hurricanes); a TV, futon and a pair of M60s. It's a echo heaven ;-P
My wife & I are planning in decorating the room, I have in mind using decor acoustic tiles, rugs and stuff. Just figuring out how am I going to 'sell' the idea to my wife...
Jaime

Hi JamieG and everyone,

It's no surprise to me that JaimeG's speakers sounded bright because of the tile floors and concrete walls of his room: the reflected high-frequency energy would be quite intense. But that's a product of the room, not the speakers!

Most speaker engineers--and that includes Ian Colquhoun, of Axiom--aim for a design that yields a balanced combination of bass, midrange and treble in a normally furnished room. The listening room at the National Research Council has a carpeted floor, bookcases and draperies along the shorter wall, with upholstered chairs and furniture. And the room at the Axiom plant is very similar. The M60ti's sound smooth and balanced in those rooms and will perform similarly in most people's furnished rooms--with no need of resistors installed on the tweeter to make the speaker less linear.

When you install resistors on the tweeter, you are changing the performance of the speaker. In effect, you are rolling off the upper octaves by a few decibels, altering the smooth response that's engineered into the speaker. It will be less articulate and detailed with the resistors installed.

So think about the room--the forgotten component--which you are using the speakers in and what you can do to it to make it more "typical" before you rush to change a speaker's carefully engineered response by tweaking it with resistors. For instance, I would not want to see resistors installed on the M22ti or the M2i. The response of both those models in a normal room is ideal, and will only be compromised by installing resistors.

A more productive approach would be to furnish the room with a normal combination of absorbent and reflective furnishings. Likewise, it isn't the duty of a speaker designer to adjust the performance of a speaker to compensate for badly engineered recordings--and there are plenty of those around. Just a few things to consider about music reproduction at home. . .

Regards,

Hi Alan

I think you have brought up a good point and although Joe is sending a set of resistors out to me , my plans are to do some work on my basement and try to get the room right. l guess for me the resistors will be a last resort type of thing.

Cheers!
Allan

And. id like to mention if you havent gotten alot of hours on the speakers yet they probbly need more break in. I got my pair of M80's on jan 2nd and lastnight i left them on with a cd on repeat at low volume and today when i popped in a cd. wow the highs and vocals were soooo smooth. unbelieveable.

I agree with you Alan, the room has lots to do with the sound. Actually, I move here to my apartment 3 years ago, when I listen to my stereo system I notice a big difference in the sound; it was exactly the same equipment, only difference was the room. With time I get used to the sound.

One 'interesting' story that happen last week : I went to a high end audio store to listen to B&W speakers...The salesman told me if I want to audition the economy line or the high end line, we try the economy one first. It was a very nice audition room, don’t remember the tower model but it cost US1,500 (economy? ha!). I found them to sound very lifeless, I was not impressed at all. Then I told him to try the higher end model, when I enter the room I saw two monstrosities, they where huge and weird looking, like that 'LostInSpace' robot, I told the salesman ,wow, those should be a 10,000 dollars pair! he said no, they are 21,000 dollars pair! To my amazement they sound very similar to my M60s only 'bigger'. I bring my cds, I listening for half an hour, and no kidding they truly sound very similar to my M60. I told the salesman that I 'LOVE' ;-> those speakers, left the store with a grin in my face...
Jaime