Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Dedicated Stereo setup

You guys are really experts (I'm not) and I need your help here.

I've been playing stereo cd music out of my Pioneer 563 and a very old Technics 5 cd changer. From reading various sources, I have gleaned that I can improve my stereo cd sound by getting a better player - one dedicated to cds.

Specifically, I am running NAD surround receiver attached to two Outlaw Monoblocks. I think it works very nice for home theater and 5.1 music.

I have also gleaned that I would get much better stereo cd sound with a dedicated amp/cd setup. True?

There is a deal on audiogon for a NADC372 amp and NAD CD542 for $1,050. Is this a better option than getting, say, only a $1,000 cd player like the Musical Fidelity A3.2 CD and attaching this player to the surround receiver (also a deal on Audiogon as well for $1,000)? Or, I could buy the NAD C320BEE and the NAD CD542 from an authorized dealer. I have a budget of about $1,000 to spend.

I would greatly appreciate any insight the forum might have. Please help!

NAD T743 (for rear and center)
2 Outlaw Monoblocks (for fronts)
Technics 5 CD Changer
Pioneer 563
Axiom Epic 60

i have the 563A, and i think its a pretty good player. now, i dont know how precise your ears are, but i dont think there would be THAT much of an audible difference from the 563A to the NAD combos you are speaking of. i mean, its a $1000 bucks, and i just dont think it would make that much of a difference in the sound?

do i know what i am talking about? probably not.. and i am sure some will chime in and tell me so. these are just my opinions, but i just dont see it making a difference that is worth that much money..

bigjohn

I searched the forum about cd players. Most people here seem to be of the opinion that a cd player makes no difference. I don't understand and haven't really read anything convincing. Maybe I'll check to see if there is something Alan wrote about cd players.

Why does NAD make one that costs $200 and one that costs $400? Why are there various cd players that cost $600 and above? I work in IT so I understand the concept of 1s and 0s.

Because they can?

Presumably, they use more expensive DACs. The transport only devices are the ones that confuse me...

On the other hand, there could be something I just don't understand about CDPs.

Go to your local hi-fi shop and listen to the difference between cd players before spending any money. It really depends on your ears.

I personally listened to a cd played on a Denon 2200 through a Rotel receiver, and then switched to the same receiver, and a very pricey Linn cd player and the difference was quite noticable.

These players all use a sony or phillips transport so it can't be because of that. why do so many people buy a high end cd players? and why do I keep reading that for best cd playback, I need a dedicated system?

keep in mind what brought this on. once I heard SACD sound, cds sounded worse than ever before to me.

always good advice Spiff. however, in Pittsburgh, I have been disappointed in our hifi shops. small and not a lot of stock. I'll try them again though. also, they all (only 3 of them) seem to only want to concentrate on the big home installations.

CD Players are funny. I bought a Cambridge Audio D500SE and hated it. Sold it to someone who liked it. I had a JVC XM504 5 disc changer which has a garage sale value of about $10. I love it, sounds much better than the D500SE I had sounded. (BTW, the difference in sound was NOT subtle - bass control, airiness, and general fidelity) I have an Ah! 4000 (tube output CDP) and it sounds great, a Toshiba SD9200 - Philips SACD1000, all sound excellent (prefer the Philips for redbook, but both are excellent).

See if you can do an in home audition and compare some CDPs in situ.

Riffman, I don't want to belabor the obvious or insult you in any way, so please understand I'm coming at this question not having complete context.

I always understood that, if a CD player is hooked up to a receiver (or pre/pro) via a digital connection, that the DAC's in the receiver do all the work that could possibly impact sound quality. I mean, if the player is just spitting 1's and 0's to the receiver, how can one player sound different than another?

If, however, you are connecting the CD player to the receiver via an analog (RCA) connection, then you are listening to the DAC's in the CD player, and would certainly expect to hear differences between players.

Am I making sense? Helping at all?

CD players really do sound different when used through analog outs. I recently purchased an Onkyo 6 disc cd changer DX-C390 (refurb $99 at J&R)and a Denon DVD-555 dvd player (same as DVD-1710 refurb from E-Cost $94). The Onkyo is great, I am using the analog outs in a 2 channel system with the Rocket RS250 MK2 and Onix A60 integrated amp. The convienience of having 6 discs is great. Having said that the DAC's on the Denon seem a little smoother but of course I bought that for my TV upstairs so it won't work out too well for the 2 channel music system.

2x6spds- ironically enough, I was going to post something about the Ah! CD players. I've heard nothing but great things about them. Leave it to you to actually own one! How is it? It's on my list to get when I actually can afford one (despite them being relatively affordable for the quality). I'd love to read your thoughts on it if you can throw out some reasons why you like it.

Thanks and be good-
Kev

I'll make a note here that because of the tube design of the DAC in the Ah! (it's the DAC, right, 2x6?) I would not be at all surprised if it did sound different from your standard CDP.

But only if you remembered to use the analog outs on the player!

When are you coming by to do some listening KC? I have the Ah! hooked up to a 5 wpc ASL integrated tube SET amp. I installed the Ah! upsampler in place of the Burr Browns some fancy tubes and of course use analog interconnects from another great Canadian company - Maple Audio. The combination is sort of audio magic.

I know. It's sad that I've not yet made it down to your place for a listen yet. We have to plan that because I'm dying to hear what this CD player sounds like. Especially since you're running it through a tube amp.

I'll PM you and we'll figure out the details. Looking forward to it!

-Kev

Riff, what you gleaned appears to be some of the misinformation that seems to continually float around in the audio world. There's no factual basis whatever for a "dedicated" amp/cd setup to provide better sound. Certainly your NAD/Outlaw amps are excellent. Likewise for the 563 in playing CDs. Don't waste your money.

I also have heard differences between my old Sony 5 disc changer and my DVP755V. Despite the old Sony's ugliness, it sounds way to good (better than the 12 yrs newer CD player) to throw it away or demote it beneath the 755V. 2X6 is right, CD players are funny. Why just yesterday it told me the one about the Rabbi and the nun...

That's right, player ... not all CD players are the same, but price does not necessarily correlate with higher quality sound reproduction ... that's why we're here, right? Try a Sony DVP 685, can be had for a song, and is a giant killer - great audio reproduction.

Some of the older CDPs also sound better than the new DVD players for music, dunno why.

JohnK...as much as I agree with 99% of your posts, I can't help but strongly disagree with you on this one. All CD players and DVD players DO NOT sound alike. The difference I heard between the Denon 2200 and that Linn cd player was not slight. The difference I heard between my first LD player and my second, again, was not slight. It was significant. In both instances the amp/receiver was the same, the only change was the player.

>>The difference I heard between the Denon 2200 and that Linn cd player was not slight.

Were you connected via analog or digital ? I think the general trend here is "if you're connected via analog there can be a real big difference between players; if you're connected via digital the difference is much smaller".

Hi Riff,
I recently made a change from a Sony DVP725 to a Denon 2900 and the difference so far is huge concerning the picture.
I am also comparing side by side daily the 2900 and a 12 year old Denon DCM340 5 disc carousel player and it is sort of hard to tell a difference except the new one certainly does sound better with "SACD" and it looks waaay better.

Tom, belabor the obvious with me! Audio electronics is not my forte! I could never be offended.

Johnk, I respect your frugal nature (its quite a fine quality in a person) but I have heard differences in cd players. I just haven't tried out any beyond $500 or so. I have also listened to my friend's NAD two channel setup - it plays cds better than mine. Its a hobby and its fun reading about this stuff. I can always sell the stuff later if I want or keep it for another room.

I was thinking of just adding the AH!4000 to my NAD receiver for now and seeing how that works. That's the another question I have - will there be a noticeable improvement in cd playback if I *only* add a high quality player?

This hybrid-integrated amp also caught my eye but I'll have to save up for this baby:

http://www.unisonresearch.com/unico/unico.asp

thoughts?

btw, I read that Upscale Audio (Ah! distributor) won't sell tubes to second hand owners.

If your thinking this much about it....Do It! Part of the fun with this hobby {for me}, is getting and and trying new equipment. I'm looking forward to one day getting an integrated to power my *stereo* home theatre.

Looks like that Upscale place has some fine equipment. *** this is where I start drooling***

Ned, I know that because I've thought about it this much, there's no turning back. :-) 130 reviews of the Ah! 4000 on Audioreview.com and most everyone is glowing.

What's funny is my friend asked me "do you really need this"? I told him I don't "need" any of this stuff.

I'm one who happens to think softening up the music on my M60s will be beneficial. Maybe the Ah! will do it.

Ola fellas - some CDPs sort of 'gleem.' The Ah! doesn't, but aside from this, I don't think the Ah! will soften anything for your M60s - the music I get from my Ah! is a combination of sparkle, precision, huge soundstage ... instruments and voices sound 'full.' This is a pretty extraordinary CDP.

Maybe "soften" was the wrong word. I just don't want to be fatigued.

Viagra AND an Ah!4000

haha, if Viagra worked for the ears, all of us would be discussing our prescriptions.

I am new to the technical terms "gleem" and "sparkle"....

can you educate?

No offense intended - it is just that in 20 years of electrical/electronic engineering, the terms surface faster than people can keep up. It also becomes very much subjective to the listener.

2X6spds, what tubes are you using in your AH!? I have read that the Amperex tubes will bring a more analog sound over the stock tubes provided. (by now, I'm sure everyone realizes my experience is limited to "reading")

BB,
Gee, those don't seem technical at all but more like words to describe a sound. The way they are used with other words. Gleem = bright or unlistenable, and Sparkle = precision.
That's just my take on it.

Poop, BBIBH, just come on over and hear for yourself. You may agree or not. Some CD Players seem to 'gleem' or maybe 'gleam' by that I mean sort of a high frequency haze or something, an aural aether, an unpleasant high frequency ... something. Sparkle on the other hand is how I describe pure, open crystaline highs. For me, gleem bad, sparkle good.

Yeah, as I respect 2X6 for being an "open to experieces" audiofan, I was somewhat tongue in cheek asking his definitions

Gleem could mean "to sine" as in they really shine in reproducing music.

Semantics and words are wonderfully fascinating!!!

I had a pair of Ediswan British (1964) CV2492/5358 tubes, which were just wonderful, couldn't help myself and replaced them with some Siemens ECC288s, which are also great.

I'm just wondering if this player will make an immediate difference hooked up to a NAD surround receiver. Then again, I just get it now and look for something like a Jolida hybrid later or save up for that dreamy Unico.

2X6, any opinions on the HeartCD600?

I've never heard one but reviewers compare it favorably to the Ah! Njoe Tjoeb.

2x6, I am definitely in the camp of " there are differences between pieces", I was asking your definition of the terms. Having spent many years in electronics/electrical engineering, the products aimed for mass market have many.....compromises (to be polite) to the build of the pieces. But that is another discussion.....

Remember, in audio there is a colourful language that becomes part of the territory when reviewing/relating our experiences. I have always made it a point to ask the person who puts forth such a term to describe to me what it is they hear. This helps me learn as well.....an open mind is needed in this hobby, as there are too many people putting forth opinion as fact - yet again another discussion!!!

I would love to come over... if I can find the time as it is a long flight from Axiomland to SoCal. I enjoy listening to systems that bring the owners much joy.

Mike, it seems pretty easy for me to tell that most of what goes on here is opinion. Its just fun to talk about it. I wish I had more time to spend here.

Looks like I'm going to try out the AH! 4000.

Although, I've derived from a few on the board that Receivers and Players are the same. In that case, I would be screwed with no chance to upgrade my sound!

Absolutely...and that is why I try and learn from everyone.
But if I attach meaning to their words, it would be MY opinions, not theirs.

This thing seemed to get blown out of proportion. I was simply asking for the definitions of the words - from a poster that I admire for his objectivity, vast experiences and willingness to listen without preconceived notions. All to often the line is stated that "all (insert piece here) sound the same", and names are dropped, reviews touted - for the most part by people who have never taken the time to go and listen for themselves......

Keep an open mind, and prove it to yourself. If you hear a difference or not - GREAT! You have proven to yourself if the theory/myth exists.

What a great deal we can learn if we allow ourselves to utilize all data available!

...sorry...just rambling!

I would pretty much expect the Ah! to sound different, due to the fact that tubes are used in the DAC (make sure you don't use the digital outs, or you've REALLY wasted your money!). They tend to have a different sound than solid state due to various issues I won't get into here as to not start a flame war...

trust me kcarlie, I won't!