Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Denon microphone

Hello all -
Well, my new m60s, VP150, and SVS PCi 20-39 are on the way; I already had a pair of QS8s outclassing my old Kenwood HTIB. Running the show is a Denon 3805, which is just an unbelievable receiver, but I never really took the time to do any calibrations, as I just didn't have high enough quality speakers to make a whole lot of difference. Obviously, that's not gonna be a problem any more... Here's my question - anyone want to loan me their Denon DM-S305 auto-setup mic for a few days? I just can't make myself spend 75 bucks on the thing. I'll be happy to pay for the shipping both ways. Drop me an email (dchidawg@yahoo.com) if you can help...

Thanks very much!
-- Jason

I have no idea what kind of mic the Denons use, but the Behringer ECM-8000 measurement microphone is a good, high quality microphone that can also be used with real time analyzer (RTA) software in case you also decide to go a little further with calibrating and tweaking later on.

The link I put in here is NOT necessarily a "buy it here because it's the best deal" link. It was simply the 1st one that google spit out. I found it for about $40 locally. Apparently, Behringer will give you a $15 rebate if you buy it before the 21st of this month.

It does not come with a cable, and it will require a phantom power supply to make it work, so you'll be pretty close in price to what the Denon one costs. The advantage is that is can be used elsewhere later on.

Check your Denon manual to be sure that you can use a different mic before you buy anything else though.

Frankly, as much as I like Denon products, I think you'll be better off with a Radio Shack SPL meter and an Avia disc.. The meter is more accurate and you'll have it in the event you ever get a different receiver that can't use that mic.

Hi DXDawg,

As Ray3 points out, you will get more accurate results using the Radio Shack SPL meter and the Avia setup disc.

As good as the Denons are, don't get carried away with the auto-equalization facility. It's very hit and miss, and it will EQ your room for only one listening spot. As soon as you shift 1 foot or so on your couch, all the EQ settings will change. And the EQ applied may sound lousy at other listening locations. You'd have to do spatial averaging with many mic locations to get a reasonable degree of accuracy. I suggest you not use auto-EQ at all. It has the potential to reduce the accuracy and fidelity of good linear speakers like the M60s.
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Regards,

Hey Jason, hope you can find someone that is willing to let you borrow their mic, although I believe you don't have to use the Denon Mic. I think it is a crock that Denon does not include that with the higher end models, it came with my 2805.

I respect Ray3's advice on these forums, however, I believe the Auto Setup and Parametric Room EQ in the Denon's does an awesome job. I have a friend that is more into tweaking than I, and he found on his 3805 that the Auto Setup/Room EQ did such a good job, that he did not have to change much once he performed an SPL testing. Personally, I don't own an SPL meter yet, but I have a pretty good ear as I've been around the music industry most of my life. My father was a professional singer and played many instruments. Personally, I have been involved in piano, jazz band, and singing most of my life, and I think if you have the ability to use Auto Setup, you should use it in combination with other methods...

good luck

It's always good to hear both sides of the argument. The crowd around here is made up of audio nerds who love to do everything by hand and tweak to their hearts content. So you're going to hear a litle of "do it manually". Now there's nothing wrong with using an RS SPL meter and the Avia disk, but that's not to say the mic is horrible.

I own the mic, and have used it more then one ocassion when I add some new to the room, or felt like re-tweaking. It sounds very nice to my ears. One of the big reasons for me is I can't read the analog SPL meter (I'm visually impaired) and so this was a lot easier for me.

In fact I'm not even fully sure *how* to calibrate with an SPL meter... do you just sit in one spot and make note of the meter readings as Avia goes through it's test tones? or what?

Anyways the mic quite nice, sadly I can't remember where I put mine

- D

Jason:
You might also be interested in this thread; I had questions regarding the Denon Mic as well:
Denon Mic Thread

I meant to add a bit to that last post, and accidentally did so before pasting this in:

My personal opinion is that the mic and auto setup functions are not a big deal. There are three primary things the auto setup does for you:

Determines which speakers you're using and whether they are large or small:
You can do this quickly manually.

Gives you the speaker distances for delay functions:
Again, easily measured and entered manually.

Offers EQ for your room:
When I had used mine (since sold) I personally didn't like any of the EQ functions that it offered. None of them were preferable to bypassing the EQ, even over multiple attempts, locations, etc. I will admit, though, to having a difficult square room that I still intend to beat into submission.

Finally, there's a huge thing that the autosetup doesn't do that will have you wanting to buy a test disc and meter anyway: It doesn't do subs, probably the most critical speaker to meter, EQ position and balance levels for!

I'm not saying that some people don't have success with the auto-setup functions. I'll also admit that, prior to purchase, I fantasized about the system taking care of every little peak and valley in my room and providing for a perfectly flat response. The reality is, it just doesn't ork as well as one would hope. I'm sure this type of technology will get much, much better in the future, but in my opinion the 3805's auto setup capabilities are far from perfection at this stage.

Thanks for the kind comment Randy. My thought in this is simply that the SPL meter/Avia disc will tend to be more accurate and covers all of the speakers, including the sub. Since you should have the Avia disc (or another like it) for a myriad of other calibration related things (Video sources for example), the logical step to an SPL meter is logical.

Sorry to sidetrack, but has anyone used Digital Video Essentials as opposed to Avia? I bought it based on the fact that it was a little newer, but now I'm a little nervous. Anyone know of any pitfalls?

Ken, either disc works. Each have their own nuances, but the choice doesn't really matter. Some folks use both, but that seems like overkill.

I actually prefer it to Avia. But, there allegedly is some problem with the LFE measurements. I've heard you should set the LFE from 81dB to 84dB instead of the 75dB that you set all the other speakers. DVE denies this, but I just don't know.

One thing you can do is calibrate with DVE, and then check your settings with the internal test tones from your receiver. If there is a large discrepancy in your sub settings, go with what you get from the receiver. I didn't find much of a discrepancy, IIRC.

When you say it doesn't calibrate Subs, what are you referencing? My Auto Setup and Room EQ function on the 2805 did set levels, delay, etc.. for the sub channel.. I"m sure there are additional tweaks one can accomplish with SPL and Avia, but to say the AutoSetup does nothing for the sub channel is a bit misleading. The settings for my sub varied for Direct Mode, Stereo, HT, etc...

I'm sorry about that-I should have been more clear. What I should have said is that the EQ does not work for the sub frequencies where it's really needed for most rooms.

It does indeed set distance and channel level, but as I wrote above, I think that's of minor consideration because that's something that can be done manually in 2 minutes.

Many had hoped that the parametric EQ on board could be used to tame room irregularities at bass levels (where it's most needed) and unfortunately the 3805 does not handle this.

Ok, you guys are starting to convince me to get an SPL meter to verify or expand on what my Auto Setup has accomplished. When you use and SPL meter, do you have to have a DVD setup disk (Avia,DVE) or can you just send pink noise around the room and have a big party...?

Well, they aren't required, so that's really up to you. I find the Avia disk really useful because of the breadth of information it contains and the help that it ptovides, both audio and video. Plus the songs they play are kinda snappy. Plus, I think Avia is a little more sub friendly - just an opinion.

At the core of this whole exercise is trying to get your speakers balanced to the same db level. This allows the sound to envelope you rather than hearing the sound come from each/several speakers.

Plus the AVIA or DVE disk can help you optimize your TV video.

YOU ARE MIS INFORMED.

I can tell you because

1. I own a 3805
2. I own a freaking huge SVS PB2-Plus
3. I own the mic.

IT DOES SUBS... Trust me, scared the crap out of me when it started rumbling at low low thunder like frequencies... It does it TWICE just to be sure....

Good Luck!

- D

Sean:
Well, let me state it differently:
I also own a 3805, a sub and have owned the mic. In my room, it did not adequately handle any of the bass issues beyond setting the distance and level. It did not adequately EQ my system and room in any way that improved the sound.

I'll state, without taking a bunch of time to add links and references to this post, that it seems to be generally accepted that the auto setup functions available in today's receivers frequently disappoint users in terms of EQ and is not (yet) the magic one-button solution many hope it will be.

If the Denon mic works for you, wonderful. It does not work as well as a test disk and SPL meter for me, in my room, in my experience. If asked by someone if they should spend $65 on the mic, in my opinion they would be better off with a test disc and meter.

I apologize for not making my opinion clearer in my first post.

Wow... I make a post, go out of town for a day, and come back to 50 responses. Thanks for all the great advice from everyone... I have already calibrated using an Avia disc, and just wasn't that pleased with the result. I'm sure it's purely operator error, as I am pretty new to the world of not-HTIB home theater. Thanks to the person who PMd me and offered to loan me their mic; I'm going to give it a shot, and if it doesn't help, then I'll just reset everything and start over with Avia & my ears, no harm no foul. Plus, I could probably use the experience... Thanks again to everyone!

-- Jason

I think Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, etc. made a mistake with the auto eq in that they should have it eq the low frequencies only rather than trying to shotgun the whole spectrum.

You're right.
I've found myself thinking that since they're already putting in a variable-Q, parametric EQ, why not increase the number of bands or even have a seperate, sub-60Hz 5-band as well? Since it could be used to reduce frequencies only (and not boost them), I wouldn't think it would increase a load on a sub....

Yep. I know that in my room, and probably in most peoples as well, most of the offending peaks are in the 20-150Hz range. I think most well meaning/unsuspecting folks end up calibrating sub levels (with meter) according to these peaks and not the overall...

Here is the link to the Denon Autosetup/RoomEQ features PDF