Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo amp/preamp suggestion, should i get them 1st?

in my computer room i have the following system:
bose 301 speaker
sansui 8080 receiver
bang ang olufsen beogram x2 turntable

i think, after reading goodsounds review i'm going to try the m3tise's. will i notice a big difference, with my present system from the bose 301, or should i upgrade to a preamp and amp first?
what are recommended preamp/ amp's for the m3tise's. is the sansui 8080 o.k. for now while i try the new speakers?
also i'm looking into a cd player for this system. i've read a lot about the cal dx-2, (used $250) are there any others in this price range i should audition?
thanks

Certainly the biggest improvement you can make are the speakers. The M3s will work just fine with the Sansui for getting started and you will be very impressed with the difference.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

Your biggest area for noticable improvement would be to replace the B&O turntable with a higher quality turntable. Your receiver would be next, and then your speakers (Sorry Ian....)

BBIBH

i'm actually going to replace/upgrade everything. I going to do the turntable last simply because it's fine for the records I'm playing right now. I want a nice turntable and I want to save up for it.
Any integrated amp suggestions?

I am curious to know why you would upgrade in that order. Take another look at the list of existing equipment. Budget concerns aside, I would go speakers, turntable, amplifier.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

Yes, the list clearly indicates a poor source, poor amp, and ok speakers (this assumes nothing is broken). The poor source played through the best speakers will not improve the sound, but simply allow you to hear with great clarity how poor the source is. If the budget alows, the source (CD or LP) should be as good a quality as can be purchased. I have several distinct systems, with equipment at all ranges of quality, and by mixing and testing, one thing has been clear - a poor source will not be masked by excellent speakers.

BBIBH

LIke I said I'm going to wait on the turntable and focus on an integrated amp and CD player first. I'm waiting to demo a used AUDIO AERO PRIMA INTEGRATED AMPLIFIER , any one have any knowledge or experience with this integrated amp?

I have not heard of this make or model.
Can you provide anything further? What are you looking at? Budget? Features you require?

While your Sansui is in need of being retired, you might think about the CD player before the amp. Conventional flat earth type magazine thinking will tell you to design your system based on speakers 1st, power amp 2nd, and whatever money is left for the CD player. This I find will provide for a very musical system that clearly details how bad the CD player is.

Anyway, best of luck in your "journey" to hifi!

BBIBH

The spec for the integrated amp ($750) are at the bottom.

I'm trying to stay under $2000, hopefully $1500 for the whole system. so if i buy the axiom m3ti, with stands ( total $355), and i stay at a budget of $1500 that leaves $1145 for cd player and pre amp/ amp.
Any suggestion on a cd player. i've been told a decent dvd with a good dac converter 24/96 is a good budget choice.
the only thing about the prima integrated amp is it has no phono input, but i do not mind buying a nice phono pre amp later when i up grade my turntable.
Honestly how mad is the B&O turntable I own. it says beogram x2 on the front and on the back it says type 5833? just curious !

This hybrid integrated amplifier is composed of a 6021W subminiature tube preamplifier and DMOS semiconductor amplifier. This special configuration allows to merge tube softness, texture and soundstage and transistor precision and power. Including 5 line inputs and a tape ouput, this alliance of two technologies will easily convert the incoming signal into soft, fast and detailed music, bringing life in each instrument and voice.



Specifications:

Typical audio performance :


Frequency range : 7 Hz - 50 kHz (-1dB)
Output power : 50 W / 8 ohms
Rise time : 2 µs
Signal to noise ratio : 70dB
Total harmonic distortion : < 0,1 %

Power supply :


100 / 120 / 230 / 240 VAC, 50 / 60 Hz selected at factory. Voltage visible at the rear on the fuse drawer.
Power consumption : 40W

General :


Tube : 6021W
Inputs : single-ended RCA
Outputs : isolated and gold plated binding posts
Chassis and cover : 15/10 steel
Weight (each) : 9 kg. / 19.6 lbs.
Dimensions (W x L x H) : 435 x 320 x 95 mm / 17.12 x 12.60 x 3.74 inches

I recently purchased the M22tis, and there is no comparason at all between *anything* bose makes and the Axioms. My family owns the 301's and a "high-end" (yeah right) Bose lyestyle system. Neither of the boses have ANY treble response, and the bookshelfs roll off the bass at about 100 hz. The whole sound is artificial, muddy, dark, and has a strange surround sound effect that is far from neutral.
The axioms are so much bettter in every way, with accurate, detailed sound that no electronics upgrade (you can buy a $30 000 audio note DAC and a $50 000 class A amplifier and it will not make as much difference as the change to axiom)

Look at the reviews at audioreivew for axiom and bose, my comments will be added shortly

Yes, I did some searching and found the amp. I have not heard this model, or anything from them. I would definitely listen to it if possible. Tubes are a passion of some audiophiles, and do require more attention than solid state. With only a single tube, it will be less of a concern.

For your CD player, certainly models from Adcom, Arcam and Rega are good choices. Integrated amps in your range would Cambridge Audio, NAD, Rotel. I would lean towards the Rega Planet CD, and avoid DVD players for serious music. I have yet to hear one that can match similar priced CD only models. However, there are tradeoffs to be made, with budgetary constraints as paramount.

Your turntable is made by a company that was serious about making audio gear many years ago. Then it switched focus and started to design "Lifestyle" (their phrase) gear, with more effort into radical appearance than actual substance for musical reproduction. It would be better than most turntables up to about $350, but badly outclassed by a midfi table. There are several choices in the range above it, such as the Rega Planar series, and of course a Linn. If you are switching to CD, than keep the B&O, and focus on the CD player.

You seem to have a good plan, Audio integrated, Rega Planet, Axiom speakers, decent cables. This will be a MAJOR upgrade over your current setup.

PS, I have had Axioms in my middle system (midfi) and they have provided many years of great service and sound. I did a similar upgrade as you are undertaken (from mass market equipment to better, targeted gear) and was impressed. I also have built a hi end system, and enjoy that as well. One thing is for certain, it is a great hobby!

Also remember you should look at a better quality interconnects and speaker cables as well.

Best of luck,

BBIBH

I agree that Axioms are better than Bose, but the problem areas in this system are not his speakers.

You over state the electronics portion, but you are correct to a point in that certain classes of equipment will not provide much improvement. But by placing a top source (Linn turntable, Spectral CD player) in the current system will produce better sound than placing top speakers (Reference 3a , Wilson or Von Schweikert) in the current system. Most of the gear I list is in your stated ranges.

It is an interesting experience to hear the combinations of hifi source-midfi electronics, and midfi source-hifi electronics. On the whole, if the time is taken to hear this in proper setups, it is very revealing.
The person in question is in a transition from mass market stereo gear to ecomony midfi. There are many wonderful days ahead of him/her for listening to many kinds of equipment.

Regards,

BBIBH

Thank you. right now i'm debating whether to go ahead and get the cambridge audio d500se cd player and the cambridge a500 integrated amp. goodsounds does a great review on them with the m3ti's. I've actually seen a package deal on the net that offers these with the m22's at a real affordable price. it also includes quality interconnects and speaker wire. plus the amp allows for an upgrade to allow phono input.
I'm going to spend some time today searching the net for rega cd player (they look very cool, I may even increase my planned budget from them).
it's so hard. the internet is amazing for research, but not being able to listen first is difficult. especially if your trying to decide whether spending $1500 on a system will make it better than your existing one. thanks for all the input

I am not sure if you are the originator of the thread, as it was "anonymous" and you have a user name "Duff", but if you are, the gear you are looking at is much better than your current stuff.

I have heard the Cambridge A500, with a mass market source(not to be mentioned, but not very good) and Monitor Audio Silver 4i speakers. My immediate thoughts were that by putting these to pieces with a good quality source, it would be a very good entry level system for around $2k.

I agree that deciding to spend money on equipment you can't physically touch or hear is difficult. Perhaps if you check the manufacturers websites, they can link you to a local dealer/ distributor. I guess I am lucky in that respect, because within a 30 minute drive in any direction lands me at dealers that respresent almost any piece of gear I wanted to check out. I have a hi end dealer a block away....and he carries Rega!

I have made many friends, including some of the actual designers of the products.

....I have visited Axiom and met Ian sometime back!!

This has gone from a quest to bring home my first stereo after graduating from college ( an Akai....yes I know!) to a 20 year hobby that has spanned many timezones and built many solid friendships.

anyway....enough rambling!

Best of luck!


Regards,

BBIBH

yes i'm the originator of the thread. i registered. it's a lot easier to follow my own post and locate the new replies to the threads.

I spoke to a canadian dealer early today and the package deal he has seems good. he says the cd player and amp work well with the speaker to create a really nice sounding entry level hifi system.
i live an exit away from a high end store. they have rotel, paradigm, and stuff way out of my price range, plus everything is wired with transparent cable and interconnects. i've listened to their reference systems. truly amazing!
the dealer there was trying to suggest the dvd player along with a conrad johnson tube pre amp pv-7 (used $400) and a sonograph amp (used $300, i've been told they are made by conrad johnson). along with paradigm mini monitors. i guess it would be a good idea to bring it home and try it, but i thought i could do better with an integrated amp and a nice CD player.

how mush is a nice rega planet sell for?

I guess you are from Canada....since you mention Canadian dealer. I have seen the prices in both US and Cdn $ CDN - $1300 and US $950.

Used is another way to go, as you can typically find older, higher end gear that has been traded in. SOme high end models are designed to be "upgraded" to modern standards on par with current equipment (Linn and Oracle do this for their turntables, and Linn for some electronics.)

Rotel is not a bad choice, considering your budget. Paradigm has good speakers, but nothing in the price range to compare with Axiom and certainly not the Mini Monitors. As a side note, I compared Paradigm, PSB, Mission, Infinity and Axiom all in the same price range. I chose the Axioms. Keep in mind this was many years ago, and things may have changed. But at that time, for $1000, I found them the best. I ranked them: Axiom, PSB, Paradigm, Mission and Infinity.( This is one mans opinion, so easy on the flaming!! ;)

I would not choose a DVD to reproduce music, with any DAC.

As I mentioned earlier, tubes require attention, whereas solid state do not. Something to keep in mind.

I think you have found part of the downside of the hobby. That is finding the proper choices given the different pieces available. If you are doing the upgrades piece by piece, I would suggest picking a piece and using it to evaluate the next purchase. If you are doing it all at once from one dealer, it is easier to test them together.

At one point, most Linn dealers dealt Rega, as Linn recommended Rega's turntables for those who could not afford the Linn LP12. Most of these dealers also sold gear like Naim, Creek, Rotel, Rega and Linn. A dealer like that could solve your problems!

Maybe you could check websites for local dealers?

Regards,

BBIBH

actually i'm not from canada. i'm from new england. i came across the dealer on the outlaw audio website in a thread about axiom speakers.
the most difficult part is i'm trying to force myself to remember it's a budget system for my computer room. i know there's a good chance once i start i'll want to keep upgrading. this already happened with my home theater system. i started really cheap with a cambridge soundworks system with a marantaz sr5000 receiver. over the past two years i've upgraded every few months. i now have the newton series with the m80 in the front with the p1000 sub. ( i know this is not consider hifi, more like mid- fi). It's fine for movies and pretty decent for music, but if anyone is using the tv or if i'm on the computer i can't enjoy music. so that why I want to stay on a budget and get this sytem with the axiom.
anyway thanks for the help. i'm defintely going with the axioms. I may take it slower on getting the other components. the hifi store near my house actually allows you to trade in anything for up to a year. once i get my speaker i'm going to choice an integrated amp from the store and buy it. i'll audition some of the rotels cd players, and find one that works with my system. I'll probably buy their pioneer dvd player though, it's 24/192 , and once i save up for the cd player i'll trade in the dvd player.
any rotel cd player you recommend, or rotel integrated amps

That is the danger with a hobby...remembering that you need to limit yourself in certain areas! At least you can continue to listen to equipment without feeling guilty.

I mention the aspect of living in Canada, only to warn that equipment released in the US is not necessarily certified by the Canadian Standards Association. This body tests all comsumer products (with some exceptions) for safety and compliance to established standards. Some equipment requires rework/redesign to be certified for sale in Canada. Using equipment not approved can cause issues if problems occur...like insurance and repairs.

Rotels line is fairly small, 3 integrateds, 4-5 cd players. Features you need may help you make a choice. Rotel (and NAD) are famous for putting more "into" the box (design, better quality electronics transitors and high current power supplies) and focusing less on the flashing lights and super duper features. Basic, high quality electronic design and good sound for the money.



Regards,

BBIBH

On a very good side note, over the past decade both UL and CSA have set their standards to be standard with each other. Not all electronics sold in the US is UL approved but if it is and if it was manufactured in the last 5 years it will be made to the same electrical standards as CSA. You will notice now that the mark is usually either CUL or NRTLC which is the standard that is now the same in the US and Canada.

Ian Colquhoun
President & Chief Engineer

Thanks for the clarification and update. I was not totally clear on CSA regulations, but remembered the discussion from college...some YEARS ago! ;)

Regards,

BBIBH

when bbibh said " an Akai-yes I know " what did he mean. Akai's are good or bad? I happen to have an old one and it doesn't sound good although it could be the speakers.

I meant that when I bought it, I thought it was good, and after a little time and exposure to better equipment, it became painfully aware of the problems with it. Some equipment is designed and marketed at certain markets. The mass market equipment typically have lots of features, many of which will go unused. The main focus is on the lights, bells and whistles, with little on the sections that actually are important in reproducing music. In Amps, these areas are output electronics (Tubes vs. Transistors vs Integrated Circuits: and power supplies), for CD players (transports - plastic or better materials, lenses, time phase errors, clock jitter).

However, there will always be a market for low cost equipment. I will admit that as a young teen, this equipment vastly outplayed the equipment it replaced.

Regards,

BBIBH

BBIBH, Thanks for explaining and taking the time to help.
I appreciate it!
marc

You are more than welcome. I enjoy audio, especially hi fi enormously, and have spent 2 decades listening, working and playing in the field.

If there are any other questions, please send me a message!

Regards,

BBIBH

Well after a month, and many many hours of research on the net, I've got my new system. I going to be getting some new speaker wire in the next few weeks and maybe a new turntable by next year.
I went with the m22 speakers. I went through a Canadian dealer,very helpful and great customer service. Aslo I liked the stands he offered with them and they were at a good price.
For a CD player I found a used California Audio Labs DX-2. The dealer was the original seller and the customer had only had it a year.
The integrated amp I bought was an Audio Aero Prima integrated amp. Demo, bought for less than half price, originally sold for $1600.
I went with a JPS ultraconductor interconnect. Just need to pick up some decent speaker wire now. Still trying to decide. I think I'll take my time and auditoin several types from the local hifi dealer. Probably stay under $100, most likely get a pair in the $30 range.
Total spent on system, including speaker stands, speakers, cd player, and amp $1600.
I'm completey blown away at how good it sounds

attention BBIBH, any recommendations on a turntable and a quality phono pre amp. Under $1000 for both price range

Edited by duff on 02/01/02 06:58 PM.

Well. are you callin' me out duff???? ;)

Nice choices! Glad it came together for you! I would not get too over the top with speaker wire. It does make a difference, particularly the size/gauge. You have made good choices to this point.

So, a turntable huh? Well here are two manufacturers that make the worlds best tables - Linn (Scottish) and Oracle (Canadian). See what they have to offer. I know Oracle has a lower cost table, and I think Linn maybe serveral dollars out of your range(like 2-3 thousand!)

Linn actually recommends a competitors table for the budget challenged - Rega. Look for a Rega Planar 2 or 3, with the best Rega arm (they make RB300, 600, 900 ) and quality cartridge you can afford. The Planar 2 list for $500 US, and arms are sometimes included in a package. The individual costs usually breakdown as such for the Planar - table $450, arm $300, cart - $250, but your negotiation skills can be used freely! I think they may have packaged the P2 and RB250 arm, and the P3 and RB300 arm. This may or may not be the case in your area. If they do, then purchase a little better arm if they give trade ins or a better cartridge.

Check them out online : http://www.rega.co.uk/index2.htm

P.S. - I have both a Rega 3 and a Linn 12. Both are quality pieces, and the Rega was recommended by a Linn dealer. A friend has an Oracle - another quality piece.

I will have to dig into a phono stage. I will update as possible

Regards,

BBIBH

Ok, with a little research, I found what I was looking for. Sorry for the delay, it has been sometime since I needed information on external phono stages!

Creek offers one for MM or MC cart's, Audiomat, and Lehman offered good quality models as well. Bryston used to offer a step up transformer (TF-1 if memory serves). This was some years ago, so it may be discontinued.

Regards,

BBIBH