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#8269 - 01/23/03 07:48 PM NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
thuway Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Well hey guys,

I am planning on building an HT setup within the next year, and am seriously thinking about Axiom Speakers. I went to the store and listened to Klipsch RF7's today and really liked them, can anyone comment on how the Axioms compare to the RF7's.

ALSO I have a huge reciever dillemma. The Axiom speakers take 4 ohms, but I have had a very difficult time finding a "good" 7.1 4 ohm accepting reciever. Would the Denon's be ok? or a MarantZ?

AND one more thing. I have a huge room these speakers are gonna go in, 20 by 25 feet with 9 foot ceilings. What speakers would you guys reccomend?

Thanks. I hope I won't be dissapointed when I order.

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#8270 - 01/23/03 08:29 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
fhw Offline
devotee

Registered: 11/22/01
Posts: 345
Loc: London, ON
Axioms are fantastic speakers for both small-budget and big-budget systems. While Klipsch are also a very respected brand, many people aren't fond of their horn-loaded tweeter, which is famous for causing listener fatigue. If the Klipsch model you're referring to is their top-of-the-line, you'll probably find the M60s or M80s to be an easier speaker to listen to, capable of just as much output, and at a substantially lower cost.

Your room is quite large, so you should probably look at something like the Epic 80 package, plus or minus a different sub (there are subs that go louder and deeper, if that's your cup of tea). For rear surrounds, you could get another 1 or 2 QS8s, or the M2 (depending on your preferences for direct- or diffuse-radiating back surrounds).

As far as your receiver choice, Marantz, Denon and Onkyo/Integra all have powerful 7.1 units. 7.1-capable receivers are not mass-market items, and as such tend to be of higher quality than entry-level units. All of them should have a 4 ohm switch on the back. Personally, I didn't like the performance of the Denon 3802 on music, but the 3802 and its successor 3803 have acheived legendary status in the press. Marantz and Onkyo make great products as well, and dozens of people on this board use them.

Of course, if you've got a big budget, audition the B&K receivers, or separates from any of a dozen companies like Anthem, Arcam, Sunfire, or even the budget separates by Outlaw Audio.

Happy shopping!

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#8271 - 01/23/03 09:07 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
john_henderson Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/03/02
Posts: 186
Denon, Marantz, all make good receivers that will drive the 4ohm load. Stay clear of any receiver that requires a 4 ohm switch. The PS in the receiver is not designed to properly handle the load, they put in the switch which will severly cut back the power of the unit to enable it to run the heavier load without overheating.

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#8272 - 01/23/03 10:15 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
thuway Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Are you sure the Denon can drive a 4 Ohm load, cause look at this:

Right on the back of the 3803 is states: 6-16 ohms for speaker impedance. In other words, it would be safe with an 8 ohm speaker, and 6 ohms would be pushing it.

http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin/...3803&display=XL



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#8273 - 01/23/03 10:37 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
john_henderson Offline
veteran

Registered: 09/03/02
Posts: 186
I had the 3802 running M-80's for some time before I purchased a 5800 and now subsequently the 5803. The 3802 never had any problems with the 80's. The unit is rated for 6-8 ohm loads and can do so with no trouble, to say that 6 ohm is pushing it is not really a accurate statement to make. If you are that concerned about it then why not go for a better receiver? Move up to one of the higher models where you know you will be safe running the load. If budget is the concern then yes you have to make some sacrifice but really I would not be to worried about the 3803 if it is anywhere near as good as the 3802 (and by all accounts it is better then the 3802) then you will be fine.

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#8274 - 01/23/03 11:04 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
Semi_On Offline
aficionado

Registered: 09/18/02
Posts: 737
Loc: Scottsdale, Arizona
In reply to:

Are you sure the Denon can drive a 4 Ohm load, cause look at this:

Right on the back of the 3803 is states: 6-16 ohms for speaker impedance. In other words, it would be safe with an 8 ohm speaker, and 6 ohms would be pushing it.




That's not what it means. Those are merely the maximum rated wattages for the two respective speaker sizes and VERY few speakers actually run 4 ohms so it's often not spec'ed in press literature. Running a 4 ohm load simply results in a higher power output. So long as the receiver has good circuitry and heat dissipation, you're golden. The 3803 is spectacular in this regard.

They don't spec my 4802 at 4 ohms either but it's blaring away as I speak.

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#8275 - 01/24/03 11:52 AM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
Pinoy Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Kansas City, Missouri
Yes, I am sure Denon 3803 can drive M80's 4 Ohm load. That is exactly my setup.

BTW sometimes I watch 3 movies consecutively or listen to music for hours and the receiver does not get hot at all.

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#8276 - 01/24/03 02:52 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
DanTana Offline
veteran

Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 162
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Do you have the video upconversion problem I have been hearing about? With blue and red lines at the top of the screen when you try to view S-Video on a plasma or HDTV screen?

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#8277 - 01/25/03 02:42 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
Pinoy Offline
veteran

Registered: 10/26/02
Posts: 115
Loc: Kansas City, Missouri
I have not experienced any video upconversion problem. I do not have a plasma TV or S-video, I just bought a Sony 65WV700 which is hdtv ready and I am using Panasonic DVD RP82.

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#8278 - 01/26/03 04:09 AM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
thuway Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Well, there is one more reciever I am considering.

I am wondering if anyone knows how much this reciever can watts it can drive a 4 ohm load with. the Onkyo Tx900.

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#8279 - 01/26/03 05:16 AM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
FordPrefect Offline
connoisseur

Registered: 07/05/02
Posts: 1342
Loc: Ancaster, Ontario
_________________________
getting to 2,000 posts; one year at a time vp160/qs8/qs4/ep350/m60/m2200s

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#8280 - 01/26/03 09:41 AM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
alan Offline

connoisseur

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 3266
Loc: Toronto/New York/parry Sound
Hi thuway,

Although THX Ultra and Select certification contains some aspects of dubious benefit or minimal usefulness, the THX requirements for the amplifier output sections are quite rigorous and include the ability to drive 4-ohm loads without current limiting or amplifier shut-down from protection circuitry.

So look at receivers with THX certification. By the way, any receiver that will drive 8-ohm loads will have no trouble with 6-ohm loads. It's 4-ohm loads that cause problems with some brands that are basically spec'd for 8-ohm speakers and were never intended to be married to 4-ohm speakers.

Regards,
_________________________
Alan Lofft,
Axiom Resident Expert (Retired)

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#8281 - 01/26/03 03:51 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
thuway Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Thanks Alan,

Is there anyway I can calculate how many watts the Onkyo carries?

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#8282 - 01/26/03 05:48 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
ralderman Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 92
Loc: Maryland
I currently have the Onkyo NR-900, it's a nice featured receiver, but it seems to be over protected on the watts when driving 4ohm speakers. In the manual it states 110w per channer @ 8ohm with 2 channels driven from 20 Hz to 20kHz, and 145 @ 6ohm 2 channels driven from 1kHz. The only thing is says about 4 ohm is 2 x 220 Dynamic power output (stereo).
There's a few things about the receiver that I don't like, that's the net tune radio (doesn't work), and the lack of power. It get's loud, but it just doesn't seem to have enough there. When listening to music I can turn the system all the way up, it's loud but not earth shattering. It didn't knock anything off the shelves, and I couldn't listen to it very long at that level, but I shouldn't be able to turn it all the way up and be in the same room 10 feet from the speakers. I'm currently searching for a replacement.

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#8283 - 01/26/03 06:29 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
MCodanti Offline
old hand

Registered: 09/20/02
Posts: 96
ralderman: By chance have you used a sound level meter to measure what your speakers are producing when you turn it all the way up? Have you tried setting the NR900 to 6 ohms like was suggested to see what happens?

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#8284 - 01/26/03 06:45 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
ralderman Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 92
Loc: Maryland
I don't have one yet, I'm going to Radio Shack tomorrow to get one. I tried 6ohms, not much difference.

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#8285 - 01/26/03 11:58 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
thuway Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Eghhh...

So I guess now,

My new choice is gonna be the the HKAV8000.

Sad, I thought the onkyo would be amazing.

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#8286 - 01/27/03 02:26 AM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
JohnK Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 10634
Rick, although I don't have personal experience with the NR-900, I'd be astonished if two things weren't true: 1)the Net-Tune does work when set up correctly(the separate Net-Tune manual is complicated); 2)the receiver definitely doesn't "lack power". There's a volume-limiting setting in one of the menus, are you sure that you didn't accidentally set it? If not, maybe in the basic level calibration how about starting out at +3or4db on the left-front speaker instead of 0? The shelves should be bare and plaster should be falling from the ceiling. Don't give up on the NR-900 yet.
_________________________
-----------------------------------

Enjoy the music, not the equipment.



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#8287 - 01/27/03 08:14 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
ralderman Offline
old hand

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 92
Loc: Maryland
The NR-900 is a nice receiver, and I haven't given up yet, but I'm very close to upgrading still. I finally got through to Onkyo today, what a pain, anyway once I got talking to them they were very helpful. After working with them for about 45 minutes we got everything working. It's a problem with their receiver and the subnet settings. For those familiar with networking, I use a class A 10 series address, and a class c subnet. The receiver allows you to change everything how you want, but for some reason it won't talk to my pc. If I use a class A network and subnet on both the receiver and network it worked. They told me that they would send the info to their engineering team in Japan. Anyway, playing MP3's from the PC to the receiver was cool, but the Internet radio feature was lame. There's a huge listing of stations, but only a few worked.

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#8288 - 01/28/03 12:13 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
GLH Offline
frequent flier

Registered: 02/27/02
Posts: 14
Loc: Iowa, USA
Just to back track a bit. The Denon site says their receivers can handle 4 Ohms.

The following is from the Denon site:
Support - FAQ Home Theater:

http://www.usa.denon.com/support/faqs_ht.asp

9) CAN I USE 4 OHM LOUDSPEAKERS WITH MY DENON RECEIVER OR POWER AMPLIFIER?

Yes, you certainly can.

To understand this a bit better, first realize that all amplifiers are designed to deliver a signal into an electrical "load" or resistance presented by the loudspeaker. We measure resistance in units called "ohms" (after the German physicist Georg Simon Ohm, 1787–1854).

Conventional wisdom makes an 8 ohm loudspeaker load the most acceptable because it "protects" the amplifier from delivering too much current. A 4 ohm loudspeaker can encourage a marginally designed amplifier to deliver more current than it comfortably can.

However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher, depending on the frequency at which you measure the impedance. (Don’t worry about this too much -- good speaker engineers are well aware of these variations and take them into consideration when designing products.)

In general, you’ll find that Denon products are designed to function with a wide variety of loudspeakers and have power supplies and output circuitry more than able to meet the current demands of low impedance loads.

In the rare event that very low impedances tax the amplifier, quick acting circuitry will protect it from damage. If unusual operating conditions trigger this circuitry, the word "PROTECTION" will appear on the unit’s front panel. If this happens, simply turn the unit off, wait a moment or two, and turn the unit back on again. The protection circuitry will automatically reset. If it re-engages, check your system for possible malfunctions.

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#8289 - 01/28/03 07:46 PM Re: NEWBIE DILLEMMMA! HELLLLLLLLLP!!!
chesseroo Offline
axiomite

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 5180
Loc: western canada
And here is a perfect example of where marketing comes into play. Denon obviously wants people to buy their receivers regardless of what speaker they choose, hence they answer, yes, our receivers will work with 4 ohms. For the most part this is probably true, however note the other statements which 'absolves' them of any real responsibility if it doesn't work:

"In general, you’ll find that Denon products are designed to function with a wide variety of loudspeakers..."

"In the rare event that very low impedances tax the amplifier, quick acting circuitry will protect it from damage. If unusual operating conditions trigger this circuitry... If this happens, simply turn the unit off, wait a moment or two, and turn the unit back on again. The protection circuitry will automatically reset. If it re-engages, check your system for possible malfunctions."


Yah, like some other system component would be at fault here.

Then of course there is the marketing from the speaker companies which may throw off the user as to whether their 8 ohm speakers are really acting more like 6ohm speakers or less depending on how the company lists the product:

"However, you should remember that a loudspeaker’s impedance rating is a nominal or average one: A speaker rated at 8 ohms may actually vary from 5 (sometimes even less) to 20 ohms or higher..."

Personally i think speaker companies should be setting their ohm ratings not as an average, but listing them according to the lowest dip on the ohm scale, even if it is for a small range of frequencies. A relatively easy standard can be developed to make this a bit more structured, such as: a 4 ohm speaker is 4 ohms if ohm spike hits 4ohms for a range of at least xx # of Hz cumulative, etc.

Perhaps this standard already exists but i've seen some frequency charts that have some odd numbers. A 4 ohm speaker that actually hit near 2.5 ohm for about a 20Hz span and 3 ohm for maybe another 30Hz span but the company still lists it as 4 ohms because it is an 'average'??!!
Gee, i hope whoever bought those speakers knows their receiver can do at least 3 ohms lest their protection circuitry turns off the system for 'unknown' reasons beyond 'usual' circumstances.


Edited by chesseroo (01/28/03 07:48 PM)
_________________________
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

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