Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Opinions wanted on upgrade

Hey Guy's

Within the last year l have been slowly upgrading my 2 channel system. My first upgrade was a NAD C370 integrated amp and about two months ago l purchased a set of Axiom m60ti's. Here's my problem, l want to upgrade my source which is currently a Nakamichi mb4s cdp to either a NAD C541i or a Cambridge D500se, but l am wondering if the upgrade is going to provide substantial sonic improvements, anything l have read about upgrading the source suggests subtle improvements. Would the money spent be worth the upgrade?

Any input would be appreciated.

Al

This question is always dependant on the individual and the only way to find a proper answer is to borrow/audition the components in your own home. Many audio shops will allow you to take home components with a temporary charge to your mastercard/visa.
Don't do any auditioning in the store. Don't even talk to any salesmen if you can avoid it and try not to ask other people what sounds good. This will essentially allow you to avoid any opinion altering jargon these info sources will feed you and hence influencing your decision before you've even heard the item. Then just test them out the components at home.

About the only question i would ask other people is 'what brands are decent to buy in xx price range'. I don't think very many people here would tell you to buy the Apex dvd players or Connatoreeno receivers but instead may say Toshibas and Denons are pretty good, etc.

Personally i found it virtually impossible to hear much of a difference between the dvd players i was looking at (doubling as my cd player as well) while out shopping last year.
I brought home a Panasonic and a Hitachi and tested them against an old Technics and Denon. I hooked up 2 dvd players to the cd in and dvd in on my receiver. Then i copied out a second cd of my audio test material, popped the 2 cds into both dvd players and then let them play.
I would use my remote to switch back and forth between the 2 players while listening to the same songs.
I started switching so often, with my eyes closed, that i forgot which player i was listening to. Eventually i just tried to pick the one i thought sounded the best.

That's partly how i ended up deciding which player to buy. Ultimately though it was the dvd player options that were the biggest influence, not any perceived difference in sound quality and hence not any 'upgrade' in sound.

Hi
I got a Cambridge D500SE after reading rave reviews of this modestly priced and very handsome unit. It was a staggering disappointment. My 8 year old JVC 5 disc changer (garage sale value of $5) sounded better. The D500SE made loose, blowsy bass, congested mids and uninspiring highs. I ended up with an Ah! Njoe Tjoeb and love it, but spent a few more dollars than I wanted. Just a word of caution about the Cambridge unit.

I agree with chesseroo

I use a JVC dvd player, hooked through fiber optic to a Denon receiver. The Denon does all the decoding. I doubt a 2000$ player hooked through an optical connection would send a light signal with crisper highs, smoother midrange, and more authoritative bass.

If you want to use a seperate CD player using the players' internal decoder, then you have to audition.

I would recommend NAD. They make some very good equipment. As for the Cambridge, I can't say for sure. I doubt my audition sounded as terrible as that, but it was so long ago I won't make a judgement call.

good luck!

Sorry to hear you're experience with the D500SE was less than satisfactory, 2x6spds. I have had one since August, and am happy to report it sounds fantastic in my system. I find the bass deep and tight, with clear, accurate and revealing mids and highs heard through my M60's. Of course, as has been noted in many previous posts, some CD's sound better than others, depending on how they were mixed/engineered/ recorded.

Was wondering if you allowed for the initial 36 hour "burn-in" Cambridge recommends, before you did any critical listening? What gear were you playing it through (I noticed in your earlier post you have quite the "audio arsenal")? Maybe you had the bad luck of listening to a unit that was defective?

Cheers.

Burn in? Did the latice structure of the semiconductors need time to stabilize beyond the hundreds of steps in the manufacturing process and the thousands of hours of burn in at the assembly site?

Hi Joe
Yes, I let it play for a week before I sat down and gave it a serious listen. Now, it is possible there was something wrong with the D500SE I had and it is also true that maybe there was bad system synergy between the ASL 5 watt per channel amp and the Cambridge. Dunno, sure was pretty though. Loved the blue lights!

Just "quoting" what the manufacturer recommends in their product manual, Semi. Not looking to open up the whole "burn-in/break-in" debate, yet once again.

Cheers.

Those blue lights are cool, aren't they!

Ok, i've sat around reading about enough of this stuff.

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it is also true that maybe there was bad system synergy between...???

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Any reasonable individual should realize that talking about ghosts and monsters in the closet is about on the same level as such jargon.

Come on guys. Lets be realistic.
If the receiver sounded bad, assuming it was definitely the receiver causing the problem which is a huge assumption (as opposed to the problem being the room, your mood when listening, the wind on your windows, your seat location two inches to left of centre that day, etc), then lets not try to get too crazy about the five or more adjectives actually used to describe it eh?
If the receiver was actually malfunctioning you would hear distortion, no sound from various channels, perhaps crackling, etc.
I highly DOUBT it would sound like the description of someone with an intestinal problem and stomach flu.

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eg. "loose, blowsy bass, congested mids..."

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Well chesseroo
Everything tends to sound good in my living room, my digestion is fine, the same system with an 8 year old JVC CD changer sounded wonderful, and even better with the Ah! The only variable was the Cambridge D500SE. I made my conclusions, you are of course free to make your own. I immediately sold the Cambridge unit and am happy with the Ah!/ASL/Michaura combination.

The only other components were the speaker wires (Mapleshade Clearview Double Golden Helix Plus), and the Maple Audio Ambience interconnects. I know there is a division among gurus as to whether cabling makes a difference.

In any case, the Cambridge receives good reviews. Instead of saying that the Cambridge stinks, I suggested that maybe it just didn't get along with the other components in my system.

My description of the Cambridge, blowsy, loose bass, congested mids ... etc. is how I heard it and those are the words which came closest to describing what I heard at the time.

Not that I need to say anything more on the subject, but I sat some friends down, including a golden eared acoustic guitar player, played my favorite test CDs (Getz/Jobim, Loreena McKennett, etc.), did not lead them ("sounds terrible doesn't it?" - would be leading)and each agreed, that particular Cambridge just did not reproduce music very well.

So, Chesseroo, I don't know what put your nose out of joint, the idea that a CDP can have the described effect on music reproduction, or my choice of words, or the idea that components may simply not get along very well. In any case, this is my take on it. You're entitled to your own.

I know, Joe. Just commenting on the silliness of it.

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Not that I need to say anything more on the subject, but I sat some friends down, including a golden eared acoustic guitar player, played my favorite test CDs...and each agreed, that particular Cambridge just did not reproduce music very well

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I think i have stated often enough that such casual listening 'tests' are inherently flawed and carry no confidence. This 'proof' is about as revealing as the (lack of) proof about Iraq and Al Qaida.

I certainly believe a cd player can have a different effect on sound but there has to be an electronic reasoning for it such as dramatically different DACs (or a tube influence). I haven't looked at the specs on these players but just offhand, the Ah tube cdp compared to a 8 year old JVC and a relatively new Cambridge could very well all sound different.

So why am i out of joint then?
Yes, the choice of words is rather unusual and as i tried to portray earlier, a highly unlikely description that a cdp can all of a sudden make the bass "loose and blowsy". Perhaps a crappy speaker could do that, but a decent quality cdp?
Is it really that dramatic?

As for the components not 'getting along', again, highly unlikely that the electronic signal in the cdp met up with the receiver and said "gee, you're a different electricity than me, lets clash".

I just thought it was all a bit dramitic. Ironic that this post adds to the theatrics eh?

On another note, i'm curious about the Ah! cdp you have. Do you have any pics or specs on it?

I relied on the favorable reviews by pundits of the Cambridge D500SE. As for me, what you described as "casual listening" and decry is the only test which is worth anything to me. Nevertheless, using the same CDs for a comparison where the only variable is the CDP seems to me to be a pretty good test.

"Blowsy, loose bass ..." I could have added out-of-control sounding bass, but I assure you, that had nothing to do with my speakers. As to the quality of the speakers I used for that test, I used my favorites, a pair of gorgeous cherry M3Tis, (I've since retired them and use another though Axiom made speaker), and an 8" Velodyne subwoofer which is capable of tight and musical bass. I can casually report that the combination of the M3s and Velodyne is very musical and pleasing.

I got my Ah! from Upscale Audio, very nice folks:

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/

G'luck!!

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Nevertheless, using the same CDs for a comparison where the only variable is the CDP seems to me to be a pretty good test.

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No. The listener in your test still has an awareness of what the source is of the test. As such, psychological effects such as pre-disposition will play a HUGE part in the results.

A good example of this effect is speaker wire. Everyone that's purchased expensive speaker wire swears by their results. Sit them down in a double blind and you won't get anything close to a consistent conclusion.

Counselor, I'll file my own brief, although I suppose another one really isn't needed. The problem with assigning the problems you describe to a CD player is that any competently engineered player these days reproduces 20-20Khz with essentially flat response and with inaudibly low distortion. There's no known technical reason for incompatibility with such a component that would destroy these response and/or distortion measurements.

Fine, fellas. First, you're right, never trust your ears! Casual listening tests are worthless. I suppose however, that if someone else who has conducted something better than a "casual listening test," tells you that a component sounds good, that would be something you should rely on.
In that case, though, why bother choosing Axiom speakers just because they sound better in "casual listening tests"?

Secondly, if all CDPs provide essentially flat response from 20-20KHz, (no real difference beween CDPs) get yourselves a discman, save yourselves the cost of a high zoot CDP and enjoy your systems!

Don't forget to connect your components with lamp cord.

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Secondly, if all CDPs provide essentially flat response from 20-20KHz, (no real difference beween CDPs) get yourselves a discman, save yourselves the cost of a high zoot CDP and enjoy your systems!

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Or a low end CD player with a digital out that lets the DAC in your receiver or preamp do the real work. It's a fairly mindless task to read and hand off a digital stream these days.

And I believe JohnK has had pretty good luck with lamp cord.

boys Boys BOYS!!!!
You guys just crack me up! (sorry, but I really was laughing out loud at some of the responses)

My take on the issue is that there is so much "magic" that occurs inside a CDP that it is possible that an evil spell somehow got into that Cambridge D500SE of 2x6spds and most likely caused the sound to be poor - perhaps you should consider an exorcist!


OK I am just kidding! In reality it is possible that there is/was indeed something wrong with the Cambridge D500SE. Perhaps an IC or other component was not functioning properly or the DAC converter wasn't just quite right. There are a lot of places where distortion could be introduced into the signal (both before and after DAC conversion)! (how about that old RIAA equalization curve?)

As far as the casual listening tests vs double blind tests vs at home instead of in a shop, etc.etc. - Hey we can only do SO much! I totally agree with chess in that any time you KNOW what components are being changed for a listening test, you "color" the results of the test. But we all do train our brains to listen for different things and "good" sound to me may be "bad" sound to you. Same for color, design, style, etc. So please don't be too hard on old 2x6spds! He does bring some good stuff to the forum! Even though you may not agree with him all the time!

Randyman

That's it Randyman.
That post of yours was the last straw.
How about we step outside eh?

Oh, waitaminute, you are way down there in Hawaii.
So lets see then, if we step outside here in Manitoba we freeze with the -30C temperatures.
If we step outside in Hawaii, we could get run down by one of our drunk driving politicians from British Columbia.

Hmmm, so many choices.

Thank you, Randyman, that's very generous of you. I gave the Cambridge a fair chance, a fair test and got rid of it. If someone else likes their D500SE, that's fine. My report was honest.

I think Semi On and Chess should take their rude behavior to another forum, so visitors aren't led to think that the Axiom site is unfriendly and inhabited by trolls.

2x6spds

Since when is subject clarity, opposing opinion and a logical response rude?
Calling someone rude openly in the forum, now that's puerile.

Don't degrade yourself to name calling in public. Posts those thoughts privately if you please.

As for those visiting the boards, I think they can decide for themselves whose advice they prefer to take. I'm sure people are smart enough to do that on their own 2x6spds.

Sorry to digress (again), but I see that 2x6spds loves tube amps...

I was an electronics nerd in my youth, and built quite a few DIY tube amps in my highschool days back in Japan. My pinnacle "opus" was a 60W x 2 output-transformer-less power amp, which used as many as 8 big power tubes (called 6336) per channel to lower the output impedance. That was a heck of finicky beast, but when set up correctly, it sounded so sweet (well, at least to me!). I still have that amp in the closet, but I do not have guts to power it on anymore. Talk about getting old...

Indeed, a fresh-off-the-bench tube amps always needed some "break-in." The big final-stage tubes kept changing their electrical properties during the first 20-30 hours or so of operation, only after which I could stably set the bias voltage, etc.

I also built a high-sensitivity tube pre-amp for moving coil pick-ups (remember those?). The tough part was the calibration of the RIAA curve... You can readily hear a 0.5dB deviation, and it was fun!

My memories long for those good ol' days with low dumping factors, RIAA deviations, and easily measurable levels of harmonic distortion... Those days you could easily detect a real sound difference between amps, I guess even without a blind test! Each amp used to have its own "character," much like loudspeakers still do today...

By the way, those days (late '70s) it was very fashionable among Japense audiophiles to use a thick, heavy-duty, outdoor-spec power cord as speaker wire. Talk about low resistance and high reliability! I guess the hobby was then much healthier than it is today...? LOL

Cheers!

Heaven forbid people disagree with you 2x6. We wouldn't want anyone questioning the party line of audiophile rhetoric in favor of *gasp* scientific inquiry!

I simply don't have the time to cuddle with you so you feel satisfactorily consoled when we don't share the same idea.

I hope someone from Axiom weighs in here. This used to be a friendly, wecoming board -- even to people who mentioned cables or burn-in.

I suppose this isn't the time to ask if bi-amping will double or half the amount of burn-in required?

lol. You owe me one keyboard.

Sorry chess...

Didn't mean to rile you up!
If I step outside I could get hit with 20 - 25ft. waves on the north shore! (surf's way up!)

Somehow I thought I was pretty much agreeing with you! - I just didn't want the posts to become PERSONAL attacks here!

I am one of many here who believes that there is little (if any) sound difference between receivers when they are truly comparable in price/specs. As I have stated (and Alan has reiterated, I believe) there are just certain principals of component design and construction vs cost that cannot be ignored. If any company wants to stay in business, they have to make a profit, and to do so they usually have to be competitive in price vs their competition.

Thus similar prices usually mean similar specs, features and sound.

Gee, is it possible for that statement to be controversial???

Randyman

Randyman,
I was just kidding about the stepping outside thing...and i was poking fun of our idiot B.C.provincial premier who got caught for drunk driving down in Hawaii and was charged recently.
I figured you had heard about it buti guess i lost you on the joke.
If not, chek out this link and you will see what i was referring to:
cbc news story
My apologies if you thought i was serious.
Next time i'll try to remember to add more emoticons.

Dang chess...
I missed that news item! You are SO ON TOP of everything!!

Nah, I didn't really consider that you were you seriously mad!
Now let's all get together and have a virtual group hug.....

Outta here!

Rman

You live in Hawaii and never saw the article about the Canadian provincial premier (so not just ANY politician) that was caught driving so drunk his blood-alcohol level measured something like 0.16 ?

I figured it wouldn't make the first page news but at least page 2 or 3.

Perhaps the Hawaiian press has gotten so used to seeing the profanely outrageous behaviors of Japanese politicians and CEO's in vacances? Just guessing... LOL

Cheers!

.16 is actually really easy to get to. It's like 5-6 drinks in an hour.

But mostly, we don't pay attention to news items relating to Canadians. We're too busy watching lame "reality" TV shows.

:rolleyes:

Well...chess, Semi, sushi

If confession is good for the soul. Then I must confess that I haven't been watching TV or reading the papers much lately. I have a new woman friend and I have been very busy getting her acquainted with my..... M60s!!!

After all... there ARE priorities in life!

Rman

Quick point of clarification. I wasn't teasing you but lamenting all the crap I've been seeing on American television lately. I'm so sick of "reality" television, I'm about to start hunting down TV execs.

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I'm about to start hunting down TV execs.

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hmm, that's one reality show that might be worth watching. Set a bunch of TV execs loose in the wood, and have contestants hunt them down and shoot them.

I guess there is always Canadian television.....um...errr....umm....

Darn right there is good programming up here.
"This Hour Has 22 Minutes", "Royal Canadian Air Farce", "Kids in the Hall", "Road to Avonlea", "Hockey Night in Canada", "The Beachcombers"....and the list goes on.....

If you want to see a real reality show, try viewing the relatively recent "Pioneer Quest".

Ahhh...Kids in the Hall. I used to watch that when I was a youth...I think it used to be on HBO. Funny show. They still do a lot of cross-dressing skits?

Kids in the Hall really is the only thing that keeps me from advocating we wipe you all out and creat a massive theme park.

But then where would you get those great reasonably priced canadian speakers from?

Ah so that's the reason the americans haven't also invaded canada.
I thought it might be our oil but i guess it is actually our historical ability to produce good comedians (John Candy, Eugene Levy, Mike Myers, David Foley, Rick Moranis, Nia Vardalos) and good speakers (Paradigm, Axiom, PSB, Energy....).

How can you forget to mention the single most important facet? BEER I would be pretty upset if I could no longer enjoy an ice cold Labatts.

Don't forget the best North American ski destination, Whistler-Blackcomb. Now that's something to brag about.

I have yet to try a Canadian beer I'd call "really good". Don't you frostbacks brew any ales?

Don't start this again.

Labatt's is far from great and there are plenty of American beer companies producing far better beer than any I've had from the fridged North. If by some miracle, you're ever lucky enough to find yourself in one of the few states to which New Belgium ships, plop yourself down with as many different varieties of their brew. Truly is heavenly.

When I'm in charged, they'll be made the official brewers of the NWO.

I'm not a Labatts fan and i haven't had a Molsons product in quite some time.
I moved on to the microbreweries years ago. They beat any of the big beer makers hands down regardless of nationality.
I had some lovely local beer in Philadelphia last time i was there but i can't remember what it was.

Hi,

As a transplanted Canadian (to the US) who grew up with Labatt's, Molson's et al, I can attest to the quality and superiority of Brooklyn Lager and Pilsener (on tap), and Sierra Nevada on tap.

Regards,

Sierra Nevada is my favorite brewery. I have two and a half cases of their Celebration Ale sitting next to my kitchen table right now.

On behalf of proud residents of the Lone Star state, I vote for my favorite, Shiner Bock... Good either bottled or on tap.

Cheers from sleeting Dallas!

It's sleeting here too. It made a very messy night at work.

Gee, snowing in Dallas....americans actually having good beer....a canadian leading the PGA tour money list....could be signs of the apocalpyse.

That's what I'm thinking! Spooky.

I have to agree with sushi here....

Shiner Bock! Pretty dang hard to beat! YEE..HAA!

Now I must confess that I spent 10 years living in Germany, and trust me.. I have ingested MANY great German brews which pretty much spoiled me. When I moved back to the states, (Virginia) I drank Canadian brews a lot (for some reason I really liked Moosehead) cause I couldn't stomach the thin watery American stuff.

Like chess, I prefer the microbrews these days - whenever possible (Just got back from Alaska - where they have some fine ones!) and here in Honolulu we have Gordon Biersch which is very "German" in style, taste, and finish!

ENJOY!!!

BEER - Man's real "best" friend!

Randyman

FYI, Gordon Biersch is a national chain of brew-pubs.