Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo Building a Bottlehead?

Ok, I think I'm ready to make the leap to a tube amp. But, the obvious question is what company will be the lucky receipient of my budgeted $1000ish.

I have learned through years of experience to stop licking 9V batteries, so I figured I may have the technical know-how to get a DIY kit, specifically the Bottlehead Paramours.

http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/Paramour/paramour.htm

I've read some pretty good reviews, but I'd definitely like to get a few more opinions. For instance, is 3.5watts really enough power for a pair of M3's?

Also, seeing as I currently have Parasound separates (pld-1500 & hca-750), I was planning to use my current preamp with a tube power amp.

This leads me to my second question: How much difference does a tube amp vs. tube preamp vs. integrated make over solid state? Would it make more sense to get a tube preamp instead and use my current 75wx2 Parasound? Or, maybe get the Bottlehead preamp kit also? Etc....

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-Josh

our 2 resident "tubeheads" are 2x6, and haoleboy.. so, hopefully they get in here soon, and give you some 'sound' advice.. Sound advice.. ah, i crack myself up..

good luck

bigjohn

5 wpc were plenty for my M3s, 3.5 watts is in the flea power range. If you're ready to drop a grand, why not pick up an ASL MG S1 15DT or PrimaLuna integrated amp? The former will give you 5 watts of SET gold, and the PrimaLuna is rated at 30 wpc, I think. Although the first watt is the most important (if the first watt isn't good, who cares how many more like it are lined up behind it?) you want a bit of headroom, don'cha?

I am far from an expert in tubes but have had heard great things with the SP3 unit:

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=processors&brand=33

I have the larger H34 and love the tube sound.

The Feb. issue of Stereophile has a nice write up on the PrimaLuna integrated amp.It is 35 wpc and auto biasing.

Bottleheads have a great reputation for excellent sound quality.

I cant answer any of your questions, but i will say that the bottlehead kits are very well laid out with good instructions and alot of great people backing them. Not only from the company but also the forum members. I built the foreplay kit and am very pleased with it.

Thanks for the input!

I've actually been keeping an eye on both audiogon and ebay for a used PrimaLuna or ASL. I've read the review in Stereophile for the PrimaLuna, it looks like a very nice amp. Also, I was looking at the little Wave 8 monos for a while, but they go for over $300 on ebay!! Thats half again more than they cost new, and I just can't justify that.

Besides, if I'm going to drop $1000 on a NEW amp. What do you think of the new ASL AQ 1003DT? I kinda of like having the remote, it makes life just a little bit easier. I don't have to go through all that extra effort of "standing up" or actually "walking two steps." Besides, the remote is wooden which is rather unecessary, but still kinda cool. Although, the MG SI 15 DT, does have a remote too. So, for only an extra $100 bucks I get 30W instead of 5W. We shall see.........

These are all good thoughts, thanks for your help.

But, can anyone give me an idea of the effect of a tube preamp vs tube amp in combination with solid state? Which makes more of a difference, if that's even a fair question?

-Josh

I actually enjoy a solid state pre with tube amplification. You get to hear what the tube amp can do. Although having a tube pre gives you more flexibility if you want to "tweak" the sound with different tubes. There is lots of affordable solid state pre with higher gain for cheaper pricing than tube pre's in the same price range.
When your running lower power amps that extra gain is needed.
Stick to 2x6 suggestion of getting a SET tube amp rather than higher power Push Pull. The SET maybe lower power but the midrange is sweet and detailed. You lose a little of the top and low range. The Push Pull amps maybe more powerful for the price but you sacrifice some midrange but get a bigger range.
I currently run a Radii GS-33SE monoblock amps
http://www.spacelofts.com/h30/radii.jpg
http://www.radaudio.com/gs33.html
They power by 90db 4ohm speakers to my loud listening level of 80+db using a passive preamp. I plan to get a solid state pre-amp with higher gain.

http://thetunerguy.com/new_radii.html
http://www.radaudio.com/power.html

The north american distributor informed me that Radii comes out of the same factory in china as Antique Sound Lab. One nice thing about Radii is that most of their amps/pre "supposedly" come out with Black Gate capacitors and Alps controllers. Some Radii models are similar to ASL models. Radii is pretty new.

Josh, tubes represent an obsolescent technology, as least for use in home audio. Although with careful design tube equipment can be made to be as transparent as solid-state equipment(there's not necessarily any "tube sound", as shown by blind tests), in general solid state is better in every way and less expensive. Although we sometimes have a fascination with the old, usually practicality prevails(e.g. most people drive cars instead of horse and buggies)and we appreciate advancements in technology.

Having said that, if you really want to buy some tube equipment, it would be more sensible to use a tube preamp with your present or other solid-state amp. The advantages of solid-state apply more significantly to power amplifiers. Although the phrase sometimes heard of a tube preamp and solid-state amp being "the best of both worlds" may be only wishful thinking, it's better than the opposite course.

JohnK - on the other hand, I believe most of this tube kit mystique is the "I did it myself" factor of the actual building of the piece.

Having said that, I will soon have a tube amp in my house. I've inherited a radio/gramophone from my grandparents' estate and it does have that fat, round tube sound... from 1938.

I'll post my impressions when I get it. I haven't actually seen it since I was about 8.

Bren R.

j0shbd, I'm in the process of building a Bottlehead preamp. Not done, so can't comment on the sound. Transcendent Sound might be another DIY option for you. I ordered a book from them, "Audio Reality," and it's straightforward no-nonsense approach to audio. SET amp is under 800 unassembled. Just a thought.

Hmmmmm....... I hope I didn't start a holy of tube versus solid state. And while a don't have much experiencee with tube amplication for home audio, I know that I like the sound of a Strat through a Fender Twin Reverb infinitely better than any solid state amp. And while applying guitar amplication to home audio may not be fair, I'm more than willing to give it a try.

With regards to tube amps, there are three terms I could use a little clarification on:
1. Push/Pull
2. Set
3. Single Ended Triode

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In Response to, I St. PatGuy, I was actually on the Transcendent site last night and their amps definitely look nice. But they seem a little more pricey and there website didn't leave me breathless. But, that isn't to say that there amps aren't great, I'll have to do a little more online research....
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Thanks,

-Josh

I think a SET and a Single End Triode are the same thing...
Can't help you on the push/pull thing.

I have a foreplay pre amp that I run with a ss power amp. which has a very nice hybrid sound.. I also have a Cayin TA-30 Tube Amp that is rated at 35 watts per channel and this is also a very sweet amp. It is manufactured by the same company as the primaluna the major difference between the 2 is that you have to adjust the bias on the Cayin which is a simple procedure.

Roughly speaking, SET/Single Ended Triode is class A, Push Pull is class B (probably AB).

With class A you have a single output device which is "turned on half way" at idle. With class B you have two output devices, one pulling up from zero and one pulling down from zero. This allows both devices to be turned off at idle.

Class B generates much less waste heat and can produce more power but you can get little "glitches" around zero, usually called "crossover notch". Class A is terribly inefficient but is totally immune to crossover notch so can in theory give you the best sound.

Class AB is like class B but the output stages are turned on "just a bit" at idle to reduce or eliminate the crossover notch.

SET = low power, hot, expensive, theoretically best sound

Push Pull = like the amps you're used to, more power, more efficient, potentially a bit of IM distortion at low levels but there are ways to design around it

SET has a higher "cool" factor despite the waste heat

j0sh, you will notice here that the ideologues come out of the brush at first mention of tubes. Always.

You may also notice that you asked "how much difference...?" not "which is better, solid state or tubes?". And, you got the ideologue's answer to the latter question, not your question. I say ideologue because of this very advocation.

My suggestion however, is similar but for different and more secure reasons. If you are unsure or don't want to take the full plunge, try just starting with a tube preamp.

i would love to hook up my 60's to a tube amp. i actually want to hear what all the 'hoopla' is about.

i grew up listening to music on my dads old head unit that he got in vietnam, and it was a tube. and, i most definitely prefer the sound from a tube guitar head over a SS. unfortunatly, i am in no position at this time to even contemplate a tube amp.. but, there is always the future, and i will always be curious.

bigjohn

After reading the replies, here is the final tally:

Integrated Tube Amp: 4
Tube Preamp/Solid State Amp: 3
Solid State Preamp/Tube amp: 1
Sold State Only: 1

I guess this just goes to show how subjective the listening experience can be. However, after reading the responses (Thank you all, by the way), I think I'm going to go 100% tube. Then, I can go back to SS if I feel either power or precision is lacking.

The only way to see if I can hear the "tube difference" is by buying or auditioning in the area. Anyone with a tube amp from Boston.............

if anyone is looking to do a little more reading on different amp classes, this link is pretty helpful (and thorough). This Prosound website has descriptions that are a little less in-depth.

j0shbd: If you have a chance get the store to demo a solid state amp vs tube amp using the same source and speakers. You make up your mind of what sounds best to you. Thats what I did. I walked out with the Radii over the Parasound. One person can say tube is better sounding or another can blow his horn saying tubes are antiquated. It is up to each individual to figure out what he/she wants. Go out and do a demo.

Is this really the Radii Audio website?

www.radaudio.com

I've heard good things about the amps, but this isn't the most.....umm...impressive..site I've ever seen. It's not particularly informative either. But I guess image isn't everything.

Speaking of antiquated technology...


sorry, it was just too easy!

You think a webmaster would settle with $5/month based on current labor wages in China?







...this a joke for those starting to get offended.

Josh, as Matt(player8)indicated, SET stands for single-ended triode. As to push-pull, this refers to a type of amplifier operation which is in contrast to single-ended operation and which is sometimes referred to as double-ended, although push-pull is the more common terminology. It should be noted that either transistors or tubes can be used in push-pull or single ended configurations and in the various classes of operation(A, AB etc.). The single-ended type uses in its simplest form just one output transistor or tube. The push-pull uses at least two output transistors or tubes which operate in parallel and are fed voltages which are equal but have been inverted 180 degrees in phase. The result is that in effect half is "pushing" while the other is "pulling" in the same direction in a co-operative effort. The push-pull circuitry is more complex but has advantages especially for higher powered amplifiers in matters such as distortion and hum rejection. Push-pull operation tends to cancel out all even orders of harmonic distortion, while single-ended operation can develop a significant amount of second-order harmonic distortion in particular. As you mentioned, this distortion can be used by guitar players and actually becomes an important part of the sound of the instrument. For home audio, however, accuracy is desirable(amplifiers shouldn't become musical instruments)and applying attractive terms such as "sweet", "warm", "full" etc. to distortion isn't really helpful. Note the test results(including response fluctuations resulting from the high output impedance)of a fairly typical SET amp here , selling for $4,000 per pair.

If you're interested in studying this, of course there're entire books on amplifier design available at the library. The St.Andrews U. site has 3 pages describing some of these factors here and Doug Self also has a site covering amps and other interesting audio topics.

In reply to:

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Solid State Only: 1

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Number of S/S guys that are tired of picking up the tube lemmings and turning them around before they hit the cliff: 1048

Bren R.

Lemmings? Love to read such authoritative reviews from folks who know everything but hear nothing.

You might want to try a tube amp a bit more current than your 67 year old hand me down from 1938.

Look, he's up on his hind legs, he thinks he's people!

Bren R.

You should hear a good quality tube amp and you may change your mind about quality sound.

In reply to:

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You should hear a good quality tube amp and you may change your mind about quality sound.

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... and if you don't like the sound, wait 10 minutes.

It's not so much that I want everyone with a tube amp to switch to solid state electronics... some people like the way they sound. Fat, round, smooth, sleestak - whatever term they want to use for the effect.

It's the reverence that the tubeheads use that gives me a chuckle. It's not the Holy Grail, it's a light bulb with a screen and anode.

Then again, I don't understand buying a "heritage" house on Martha's Vineyard for $2M that's 300 sq. ft and all the interior doors I wouldn't trust on an outhouse.

Everyone draws the line somewhere different between respect for the past and suitability for life for the present.

Bren R.

that whole last post "gives me a chuckle"..

good lord man.. find the pressure valve, and let a little air out...

bigjohn

In reply to:

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good lord man.. find the pressure valve, and let a little air out...

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That's the entire idea... if this were life and death, it would be worth writing a thesis on.

It's just home audio, worth a couple of wisecracks.

Bren R.

Bren,
I have my fair share of ss amps.
Denon avr 3803 7.1 channel, MarantzMM 9000 5 channel, Adcom GFP 750, Yamaha DSP 1000, Kenwood 5.1 channel plus (3) Tube amps. don't you think I have a sufficant number of ss amps. I have nothing aganist ss amps but i also have a preference to to the sound of tubes providing thay are quality units.

I didn't crucify you... I just handed you a couple of pieces of wood and some nails... if you want to climb up onto it and nail yourself to it, feel free...

Everyone assumes a crack about someone's equipment is an attempt to stay their hand. I personally don't care what you use... tube, solid state, a big megaphone. Everyone likes something different out of their audio experience... some people revere vinyl, some like cassettes still I'm sure, some people even like Duran Duran! If it makes you happy and it's not illegal, go for it.

But once it's put into a blanket statement like "tubes rule" or "the MX-700 remote 0wNz j00", you're going to open yourself up to people with other positions. And the harder a line you take, the more sarcastic the resulting messages will be. Fanaticism just doesn't get the same respect it used to in the middle ages.

Bren R.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, I love all of my equipment be it solid State or tube. That's why I own both..I didn't feel crucifyed every one has thier own opinions thats what makes us individuals. Have a Great Day..

In reply to:

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I didn't feel crucifyed

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could someone get me a hammer over here.... please!!



bigjohn

I want the megaphone. Maybe maybe someone will hear me.