Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater What am I doing wrong

Hi guys and gals,

Been a while since I've been on this board. Anyway here goes.

While back I purchased the M60's, a VP150 and 2 Qs8's (BTW like the QS8's alot). Anyway, I am finding myself constantly changing the volume during a movie to hear what is being said. The M60's are being driven with a Crown 402 and the qs8's and vp-150 are being driven by an HK 7200.

All have been calibrated using test tones and a RS SPL meter.

It's damned annoying. Any help you guys may have for me would be appreciated.

Also, I thought that these speakers were tonally the same? Yet when I do a pan across (like using a tone generated from the HK) there is a distinct difference from one M60 to the VP 150 to the other M60. The m60's do not sound the same with the pan and the VP-150 doesn't sound like either one of them as well.

Hope it's something stupid that I've done and they aren't shongoed.

Hopefully some of the other AV techies will chime in here, as I proposed a similar question a while back. I also find myself constantly turning the volume up/down to hear the dialog from my VP150. I have adjusted the level of that speaker above that of my mains, but still have the issue. I also manually adjusted the midrange frequencies, per a suggestion I believe JohnK mentioned. It may be slightly better, but still find myself adjusting the volume.

Randy

When I run the test tones generated by my HK 7200, I hear a difference in my matching fronts and center. I think there is a slight tonal difference because most centers are sealed, not ported like your mains. With test tones there are slight variations. However, when I watch movies or play a video game I notice no tonal shift between the two. Make sure you have the VP150 up to the edge of your cabinet or entertainment center, reduces the chance of any reflections that can alter the sound.

Just a random guess/idea. Is this on every movie you watch or just specific ones? I find that some of my DVDs were poorly mixed. Especially those that are dubbed in some form (Anime). So the speaking parts are far too low, but when the action comes I have to turn it down. For example Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust is so poorly mixed that I have only watched it through once even though I enjoy the film. But I get sick and tired of adjusting the volume up and down.

jr

You must have done something wrong. You might want to check the CC speaker level again. I only have the VP100, but, it has always been as clear as a bell, even uncalibrated. If that doesn't help, I would seriously consider going to the doc and have him flush your ears.

Make sure the VP150 is tilted up/down to point at the listening area -- that also seems to help. Sometimes a hockey puck or equivalent under the back edge of the speaker...

And, as already mentioned, make sure the front edge of the speaker is not behind the front edge of the TV/shelf.

EDIT -- BTW, everyone's speakers sound different when playing pink noise tones. I can't say "don't worry about it" (I still worry about it ) but there are some simple experiments you can do to ease your mind :

- pan between the M60s, note how they sound different

- place the M60s side by side in the center of the room, test again, they will sound pretty much the same

- I haven't tried the above with M60 vs. VP100 yet but I imagine it would make quite a difference as well. Note that you MUST run both in small with a fairly high crossover (higher than 100 Hz) or the extra bass of the M60 will always make them sound different

"Sometimes a hockey puck or equivalent under the back edge of the speaker... "

Door stop wedges work well.

"...but when the action comes I have to turn it down."

You don't have to turn it down, but it is freakin' loud - just like a movie theater, eh?

Hi rmcgirr83,

It's placement, placement, placement! And the ROOM! Even identical speakers will sound different using a pink-noise test signal unless they are placed side-by-side. (Even in that setup you may hear slight differences; that's how hugely influential the room is in altering the sound of a given speaker.) Try it with your M60ti's, then place them in the usual positions. It's a very interesting experiment.

The center channel speaker is, according to all my tests, even more susceptible to changes in tonal balance. See my article, "Fine-Tuning Center Channel Sound" in the Axiom newsletter Archives. You can get to it under Audio Tips and Tweaks. Try the site map (bottom of screen) if you can't find it.

Try different placement of your center. Keep in mind that pink noise is a rigorously critical test signal. Use your remote and play movie dialog, switching from "Stereo" to a 5.1-channel mode until the dialog sounds tonally matched. With experimentation, you can get it very close. I also use music with a vocalist switching back and forth as I try different locations for the center.

Remember that about 70% or more of the sound you hear from a single speaker is made up of groups of reflections from all the boundaries and objects in your room; only a small percentage is the direct sound radiated by the speaker. This is why the same speaker in slightly different locations will always sound different using pink noise, because each change in location invokes a different combination of direct and reflected sound. Our hearing is incredibly acute in the midrange (evolution. . .), so we can detect tiny differences in coloration using pink noise.

Once you have a good location for the center, adjust its level directly with a few movies. Some are poorly mixed, so you may have to tweak the center level occasionally, but if you are having to adjust all the time, your center location is flawed.

Regards,

Thanks for the replies...and I have pretty good hearing so no visit to the doc for me....yet.

Like I said earlier the mains are being fed via a pro amp from the hk. The db is set at 0 from the hk to the pro amp and the pro amp is cranked wide open. The center is set at +5 db on the hk and is, currently, located towards the rear of a salamander twin thirty (not located at the very front of the stand). All have been spl'ed at 80 db. (hence the +5 on the center as the pro amp pumps out 220 WPC). I wouldn't think that ~10 inches of shelf space would impede the sound waves (reflections) that much? Also FWIW, by placing the CC on the salamander places the speaker right at ear level...or at least close enough to say "ear level".

RE: DVD's I do notice that it is with some more so than with others...but I still have to adjust the volume for all. :confused:

On HD via OTA it isn't like this...other than the loudness via all...and the dialoge is very intelligible.

I guess I'll try and move the CC more toward the front of the cabinet, although not sure about the WAF as that will allow anyone to see the speaker wire.

I thought I shouldn't have to do this as these speakers replaced some JBL studios that were getting on in the years. So I replaced them with these.

Just not sure I made the right decision and I guess that's what I get for not listening to them to begin with prior to buying.

Any other ideas and is anyone looking for slightly used but never abused M60's and a VP-150?

" I wouldn't think that ~10 inches of shelf space would impede the sound waves (reflections) that much?"


10 inches can ipede the sound considerably.
Over the last few days I've been tweaking my CC forward and backward 1-2 inches, hearing huge changes. I think I've finally settled on pulled forward, just over the front edge of the entertainment center and tilted a little down towards the "sweet spot".

Hi,

Placing the center 10 inches back on a shelf would really affect intelligibility because of adjacent boundary effects from the shelf and anything above it. I always advise center and bookshelf placement slightly protruding from the edge of the shelf to avoid coloration from the shelf surfaces. Even the face of my old direct-view 28-inch CRT set significantly altered the timbral balance of a VP100 when it was placed on top.

Are you using some type of auto-EQ on the center? If you are, turn it off. Use an 80-Hz crossover frequency and set it to "Small" on your processor menu.

Placing the center at ear level isn't a big factor; it's the presence of nearby surfaces that alter the tonal balance and affect clarity. As an experiment, try the center on a short stand (or a box) in front of your setup, so you can get a sense of how the speaker ideally should sound. You can use dialog or pink noise. Then find a location that mimics that neutral quality.

Regards,

Learn something new everyday. So now I have some playing to do with the CC.

Thanks for the replies and I'll let y'all know how I made out.

So how'd it go?

10" back in a cabinet or shelf is a lot. Couldn't you pull it out while watching something, and place it back when you're done? (that sounded kind of wrong didn't it?)

Haha lmao.

Yeap

RE: Pull it out and then put it back when done.

Yeah I could do that...and in fact I do do that.

BTW, we are still talking about my CC right?

FWIW, yeah I "pulled it out" 10 inches and recalibrated and have to say it helped tremendously. Watched quite a few movies today as I am ill. "Gladiator" (always had to adjust the voume with this one), "Chicken Run" (never saw it before) "Ice Age" and "Fat Albert" (both are same as Gladiator).

Not once did I touch the volume, well I did once and that was to reduce the volume overall as the sub was shaking the windows and WAF was taking it's toll.:D

But I did not have to turn up the volume to hear the dialogue and then turn it back down so my ears wouldn't bleed.

Thanks for your help all. I can comfortably say that I learned something new today....something I did not expect.

FWIW, I have the Rives audio disk and am going to be doing a RTA of the entire spectrum....that is when I get a chance.

I'll be sure to post on here when done.

Thanks again.

That's pretty funny spiff.
Nice to read some of your posts on the boards again. I missed your humour.
How goes the comic trade?

The comic trade is mostly just a hobby of mine (read: I buy and buy and buy, and rarely sell)

Though my worlds are currently crossing paths, as at my real job, I'm working on putting BATMAN BEGINS on the Imax screen.

btw...great news about the VP150 and 10 inches!

In reply to:

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Though my worlds are currently crossing paths, as at my real job, I'm working on putting BATMAN BEGINS on the Imax screen.

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which i assume means you've already seen the flick... you lucky bastid!

Nope. I've see parts of it, but not much yet. If our initial tests are any indication this could be the best looking IMAX DMR project yet.

Comix? hah, my old obsession. At least for about a 3 year period in the early 90's when the comic store was near my office. Screw the book store, I went to the comix store. Now if only I could figure out a way to get back that investment...

shoot, i still go once or twice a month! i might be the only married 27 year old guy going in there, but i still gotta get my fix! there's some real good stuff out that not in the "tights 'n flights" genre (though i do like that too!)