Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Stereo AXIOM m60ti with ONKYO TX8511 or ROTEL RX1050

Good morning folks....my first post, so I'll say howdy to all. I'm considering purchasing a beautiful set of m60ti's for my 14x18 den. I recently purchased an ONKYO TX8511 100wpc sterio receiver to replace my old and tired luxman audio receiver....very sad to let it go indeed....Anyway, my plan is to pick up a new ROTEL RX-1050 (also 100wpc) within the next year. My question to all of you knowledgeable folks is whether there will be a difference in sound quality between these two receivers? And if I should even bother buying the new ROTEL receiver? Any help will surely be appreciated. Thanks

Many people will tell you there will be a difference. Many will tell you that there won't. If you were going from a receiver to separates (especially higher powered separates) I would be willing to entertain the idea that there might be a difference. However, going from receiver to receiver (especially a really nice Onk like that one-this isn't a bargain basement Walmart special!) should not make a difference, at least in the amplification side of things. The DSPs probably will sound somewhat different, but straight through stereo direct shouldn't.

Welcome to the board! I don't have much of an opinion about the receivers you mention other than I'd love to get a full Rotel setup myself based on their great looks and the wonderfull reviews from those on these boards. I currently have the m60's in a room slightly larger than you mention driven by a hk/3480 (120wpc) and it sounds just great. You're in for a real treat!

I recommend considering the harman kardon 3480, 120x2 @ 8 ohms

a) It's under $280 on amazon

b) It's much less than that Rotel(as much as they sound as good as they look: no way there's much audible difference between that and the HK, if even a measureable one)

c) The onkyo has no subwoofer or pre out outputs, which kills upgradeability. Sure, you can plug it into the speaker level jacks on the sub, but it just aint the same..

I was considering that Onkyo when I saw it on amazon refurbished for about $180. However, no sub output really sucks.

Whoops, guess I misjudged the Onkyo. I thought it was one of the 8 series HT recievers. Nevertheless, Onkyo is a reputable company and should be building decent stuff.

Strange, I thought I'd already posted this, but I don't see it. If it's a double post, I apologize.

Although I really like the sound of my system, one thing to consider about the HK 3480 is that it doesn't have a crossover for a sub even though it does have a seperate output. Honestly, I'm not sure if you really *need* a crossover for 2-channel listening, but if you know you'll want a sub you might want a different receiver. Btw, I was sure that I would want a sub before I got this system, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything. The only reason that I'd like a sub now is that old upgradeitis itch.

Good point about the crossover for sub. With smaller speakers this would definitely be a problem because you really need to high-pass the mains (ie set them to SMALL) in order to keep the bass out and let them play at a decent volume... and only an AV receiver can do that.

With M60s it's probably not such a big deal -- you would probably just have the sub kick in at the lowest frequencies (maybe 40-50 Hz crossover freq) and would not need a high-pass filter.

I run an HK3270 with M60s and am totally happy with the combination. I would only add a sub if I was going to play DVDs through the system... and then I would probably want an AV receiver anyways...

Ahh, thanks for the clairification. That makes sense.

Actually, that depends on the speaker itself, not its size.

The m2i was reviewed by soundstage to dodge deep bass, while the m3ti tried to do some deep bass(using a bass woofer and all), which left room for distorted bass at high volumes. The m2i would be better for a situation without a crossover, since it would not muck up as bad with high volumes in the bass area. Same with the m22ti perhaps, since it uses the same drivers, although it would be more tolerant due to the larger enclosure and extra driver.

Big speakers such as cerwin vegas need to be crossed over moreso than the m2i, perhaps, due to the horribly muddy and boomy low end they have.

A 5.1 receiver will give you much less current and is the only way to get a crossover in a reciever.

I recommend getting a very cheap preamp(refurbished, used, etc), then an amp, and putting a crossover between the preamp and the amp. HSU sells them for $100.

So, you're referring to the high pass filter from HSU? They seem to allow you to specify two different crossover settings. Any recommendations? I'm not so sure I need a sub but it's nice to know that if I do decide to get one and I'm unhappy with the the default sound from sub output on the receiver that I still have options.

>>The m2i was reviewed by soundstage to dodge deep bass, while the m3ti tried to do some deep bass(using a bass woofer and all), which left room for distorted bass at high volumes. The m2i would be better for a situation without a crossover, since it would not muck up as bad with high volumes in the bass area.

Agreed, but even the M2 really benefits from filtering out the bass. The woofer cone doesn't flap around as much as with an M3 but filtering out the bass still makes a big difference in terms of the SPL you can reach without sounding strained.

Ask me how I know... ignore the dog :



The 12db/8va high pass in the PSB sub never really cut it... but the 24db/8va high pass in the HK630 really lets the M2s sing.



The difference when playing rock at a reasonable SPL in a medium sized room (13x23x8) was quite significant. In a smaller room there was no problem running "full range" M2s plus a sub.

Yes Frank, and among the less expensive options are these .

Thanks, John. I didn't even know that inline crossovers like that existed. I have much to learn.

I have the newer Rotel RX-1052. Fortunately I was able to pick it up used. It's a pricey $900 new and the dealers here won't budge on price. (Not available online). I have not heard the Onkyo you mention but I will say the Rotel sounds great and looks great (silver). I plan to drive M50s with it. Try to listen to the Rotel first. You may find that there is no difference in the sound from your Onkyo, so why spend the money? If you really NEED to spend money, also consider a NAD C352(80wpc) or C372(150wpc) integrated amp and separate C422 tuner. Buy online discounted from www.saturdayaudio.com. The set would be about the same price as the Rotel. (I also have an older NAD C370(100wpc) amp and C422 tuner). AND, Don't buy a sub just because it's cool (If you live in apartment, forget it. Your neighbors will kill you!). For me, the sub makes MUSIC too heavy...For home theater it's good to have.

In reply to:

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Thanks, John. I didn't even know that inline crossovers like that existed. I have much to learn.

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Pssst... they don't... they're "caps"... capacitors in cool looking packages. You can do the exact same thing with a couple of $0.03 capacitors - the original high-pass passive "crossovers."

Bren R.

Hey Ken I appreciate the response! I had the same first impression as you until I spoke with the expert sales folks! Their response was that Rotels are 'very' conservative in their power ratings and that the difference will be "night and day" with the proper loudspeakers...at any rate I've ordered the m60s and we shall see how the Onkyo delivers to start the show....again...thanks for the response

Great advice on the Rotel....thanks. And I know, the dealers won't budge on the pricing! I also checked out the web site you recommended for the nad eq....no listing for your items? I did notice that the hk3480 listed at $449...ouch...did you say discounted? This item moves for $299 at www.bestpriceaudiovideo.com. I do like the nad options though...their eq has always been top quality. My m60s are dropping at my doorstep on Wed so we shall see how they sound driven by the Onk first. This may seem like an odd question, but is there a traditional Canadian beer that I should savor while auditioning my new m60s?

I guess the most common beers up here are still Labatt's Blue and Molson Canadian, but personally I don't like either of them.

Canadian in cans is pretty much the traditional "camping beer" though. I'm not sure why people drink Blue -- it has that soapy dishwater lager taste if you're into that kind of thing

Molson Export (ale rather than lager) should be fairly easy to find in the US and is pretty good. That would be my recommendation.

As with any country, we also make some really nice beers but in smaller volumes. If you can find anything from Unibroue, particularly Trois Pistoles, grab it -- not exactly traditional but brewed in Canada and VERY good.

The NAD C372 & C352 integrated amps are listed on the "NEW GEAR" tab on www.saturdayaudio.com. You have to call them for the price. I was able to buy the C370 integrated for $200 off retail during a closeout sale. They gave me $30 off on the C422 Tuner. I would not pay $900 retail for the Rotel RX-1052 but the used one ($725) kind of fell into my lap. I was leaning toward a NAD set-up after I learned of the Rotel retail price. AGAIN, I think YOUR ONKYO will be just fine!!! Be sure to let us know what you think!!

I'm sure the sales guys did... my sales guys also tell my clients that I'll be able to do the work in 2 hours when it will take 6. Grain of salt, my friend, grain of salt.

Grain of Salt, yes I do understand Ken!
And in the same breath they also recommend B&Ws as perfect compliments. No complaints for they are wonderful sounding loudspeakers, but there are always better alternatives....
Gosh, even the T-amp listed in another post for 30 bucks, simply unreal if all the hype is genuine!
At any rate, I do appreciate all the great feed back I've found at the forum. Almost as great as the service I've experienced at the hands of axiom so far....
Thanxs all...

>> Trois Pistoles, grab it -- not exactly traditional but brewed in Canada and VERY good.

I love that beer!! I didn't notice it being a Canadian beer though. I originally bought one because of the cool label and high alcohol content, but the beer is excellent.

The stuff you buy in Canada is brewed in Quebec... could be brewed other places I guess.

I figured Unibroue was French-Canadian, could be some Euro-French-Belgian name as well...

And I thought it got its name from the fact that the head brewmaster has but one eyebrow...

Euro-French-Belgian with only one eyebrow...

Hey John, I hope that you're not too disappointed, but I broke my new m60's in with a four pack of Guinness Stout (I couldn't find the one eye brow brew!), and the rude essence of folks like John Coltrane, T-Monk, Branford Marsalis, Joe Satriani, and Miles Davis....just to name a few! The Guinness was great as always, and most of the music was well worth 'at least' the $900 for the new drivers. I noticed on cd's like Satriani's Engine of Creation, a hollow sound (not sure exactly how to describe it, rather unpleasant though!) and this was prominent on some other rock sources I played. The jazz all sounded fantastic as well as the classic licks like the violin concertos by Beethoven and the elaborate Gershwin comps. In all I'm happy with the purchase and don't think that the 30 day trial is a temptation at this point.

Thasp....I have to say that the Onk tx8511 does a great job of pushing these units. I don't run volume past 50% ever....and regardless of the music source (so far), they never have sounded strained...always crystal clear. I do have one beef with the Onk vs the HK though....I ordered 12 gauge speaker wire along with the M60's only to find that my Onk amp won't accept the wire! So I had to thin and then tin so to speak. I've been told this would not have been an issue with the HK...oh well. A small inconvenience, but still a disappointment. So, still in break-in mode I listen on....
Any one out there heard the Coltrane Ascension cd? Definitely a tough one on the ears....but a great break in for a set of m60's!!!!
Thoughts....cya folks and thanks for the guidance....