Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Help me build a system

I am currently in the planning stages of building a new home. I presently have my home theatre system in my living room. In the new home I am building a 22' wide by 28' long home theatre. This area will consist of my TV and componants on one of the 22' wall and a bar and restroom area on the other 22' wall. The bar and restroom will be 7' deep off the back wall. This leaves me 21' in which to work with.

My current set-up. 65" Mitsubushi WS rear projection TV. 5.1 Bose dual cube speaker system. Yamaha 5450 reciever. Sony DVD, Sony 200 disc CD changer. I also have 2 Bose speakers outside.

I am thinking about upgrading my speaker system in the new theatre area. I have been quite pleased with my Bose speaker sound. I went with a small speaker because it was in the living room and I wanted them to be discreet.

Okay, so let me know how much better do full size speakers sound? What speakers would you purchase? What reciever (Keep in mind that I will need A and B speaker ability to run the speakers outside)? Do most of you guy's have 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 systems? How close is your first row of seating to your screen? I would like to elevate my TV 6 to 8 inches for better viewing from the rear of the room. This will raise the TV to just above eye level from the first row. Is this a good or a bad idea?

I am a relative novice at this so keep that in mind. All the help you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks

Wow where to begin

I think everyone here will agree that upgrading to a speaker system with a better sound stage will blow you away, compared to BOSE cubes, especially in that huge room. It sounds like the system will be used primarily for movies and less for music listening? Also, a lot depends on your budget?

Are you still planning on using the projection tv. I would highly consider looking at Front Projection as you could get a real movie experience with a much larger image on that back wall. I have 120" diag., nothing like haveing a movie theater in your own home if you can swing it....especially when you in the process of building the home. I would plan for 7.1 for the future, although, you can start with 5.1 and move up when you want.

Normal rule of thumb is you want to be 1.5 times the screen width back. That is for projector screens, not sure about smaller projection tv's. Also, you want your eye level to be 1/3 from the bottom of the screen, again, that is for projector screens.

good luck
Randy

m60's vp150 ep350 4-qs8's
denon 2805
sanyo Z2 WXGA projector
toshiba dvd
samsung hd tuner

Have not thought much about the budget. Lets say $3500 for speakers and reciever.

It will be used mostly for movies but I do listen to music a good bit also.

So if I buy a 7.1 reciever it won't matter if I only have 5 speakers hooked up instead of 7? Do you recommend a reciever with THX?

You can get a 7.1 receiver and use it with 1 speaker! I've got a 7.1 receiver, and went from 2.1 to 4.1 to 5.1. I will probably not be going to 7.1 at any time in the near future. As for THX, you certainly don't need that, unless you like little shiny nameplates.

You should make sure you account for a good sub in that $3500. Let's see:

$500-700 for a reciever. You can get decent deals on refurbs or last year's models.
$600-1000 for the sub, depending on which way you go. Consider Axiom, SVS, and Hsu.
$100-200 for cables, unless you've got some. You don't need boutique cables, just good solid ones. Have a look at Blue Jeans Cable, Parts Express, or Axiom
That leaves plenty for speakers, unless I've forgotten something.

I'll let someone weigh in on which package to get (I'm not good at judging room size), but you should be able to get a nice set for that.

For that amount, you have a lot of options. There are a lot of receivers that can be had under $1,000 easily. That gives you enough for many Axiom speaker configurations. Check out the Products page for some options.

Yes, you can start with 5.1 or 6.1 or 7.1 and move up anytime. Personally I think THX badging is not a big deal, there have been many debates on here about that, my 2805 Denon does not have it and it sounds unbelievable, even the THX trailers on movies blow me out of the room when the sub and qs8's kick in....

How about the Epic 50 175 or 350 systems? I also see that you can buy the rear speakers seperate. But the price on the website is for 2. Can you buy them one at a time? If I go with these speakers how much power per channel should I be looking at in a receiver?

Also, my speakers now are mounted on the ceiling. Should these rear speakers be mounted on the wall? At what level?

I would recommend buying in this way, if you don't want to buy everything at one time
1st: Mains. Pair of M22s, M50s, or M60s.
2nd: Surrounds: pair of QS4s or QS8s. (You don't want just one surround. You can buy them that way, but generally that's considered an option so you can go 6.1)
3rd: Center. Either a VP100 or VP150, depending on room size.

The sub should come somewhere around 1 or 2. I'd be looking at 350s and up.

I own a modified Epic 50 (without the sub). Axiom is willing to sell you whatever you want. 5 or more items in one order gets the 5% discount that the prebuilt systems (the Epics) have.

As for the surrounds, the current Dolby, DTS, and THX standards call for them to be mounted on the side walls, in the arc from slightly ahead of to behind the listening position, and 1-6 ft above the listener's head (I think that's the correct number).

Tiger, for a budget of $3500 you should be able to set yourself up with a dandy system. Keep in mind also that Axiom will cut 5% off of the advertised price if you purchase 5 items or more, a little savings that can add up!

Also, on the product page, check out the Factory Outlet link, most of us have purchased our speakers that way. You save 10%, plus if you order 5 or more items you get another 5%. These are also brand new speakers with the same warranty, but MAY have slight blemishes. Notice, I say MAY, most of us have never been able to find a single nick or blemish. Axiom's quality control is so high, that you have to have a microscope to find anything wrong...

ndtiger,
Your budget seems quite enough for the audio part of the setup unless you need to worry about furniture-grade finishes and boutique brands (not that there is anything wrong with either). I am quite happy with Marantz SR7400 reciever. It has Dolby PLIIx allowing 7.1 from 2 or 5 channel material and sounds nice indeed. It also has video upconversion so you only need to run one set of video cables to the TV/projector (but not HDMI). You should be able to get it around US $600-700. Other options I would consider are Denons (3805 and up) if you want to move a bit up or Pioneer VSX-1014 if you want to save some $$$ and don't plan to use 4 Ohm speakers (e.g. Axiom M80's).
Your room is big enough for M80's or M60's and QS8 surrounds. I use QS8's both in the backs and on the sides in 7.1 setup but other folks reported excellent results with direct radiating speakers in the back (M2's or M22's).
For the sub going with SVS cylinders may be a bit too much after Bose. I would also consider Axiom's EP350 and up or HSU (I have STF-2 in a smaller room (15 x 23) and it is certainly sufficient). It is downfiring that was desirable as a child-proofing feature.
Plan the wiring for the future. Consider sending HDMI and component video into the ceiling if you ever want to add a front projector. Cost of this compared to the building costs should not be a concern and it may be hard to change later. Put enough of speaker wires to cover any future extensions (even if you don't want to set up 7.1 from the start).
Positioning TV. I am not sure if raising it a few inches will do the trick. If you have a dedicated room consider raising the back of the room where the second row will be. When builders are still there this may be not a big deal to set up and will add that theater "feeling" to the whole place. I used 3 table tops bolted together on kitchen cabinet legs for the raised platform for the back row seating and it works well enough and was very economical.

My Setup

Wecome to the board.

That is a pretty big room you'll be using. For main speakers of the Axiom variety I'd recommend floor standers like the M50 or M60 (could go M80 if you are looking for high volume levels). For surrounds I'd recommend at least 2 QS8's (3 if you want 6.1 sound or 4 for 7.1 sound, but 2 would be good to start) and the VP150 for a centre channel (the VP100 will probably be small for that size and wide a room). For good movie watching you'll want to get a good subwoofer that can put out. I'd suggest nothing small er than a 12"er for that size room (e.g. SVS PB12 - ISD, SVS 20-39 pci, HSU STF-3 or VTF-3, or Axiom ep350 or ep500 are all good picks).

For reasonably priced receivers, Denon, Harman Kardon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pionerr Elite series and Onkyo are popular with members on this board. Of course there are higher end ones like NAD and Rotel to consider if you want to spend more money.

Hope this helps and have fun shopping.

Paul

Yes! Welcome to the world of Axiom!!

Seeing the M50s mentioned a couple of times in this thread makes me want to add my $.04 worth(devalued dollar)

I'm currently using M50s on either side of MY 65" mits, and couldn't be happier! I'm also using M3s as center And surrounds due to the fact that they are all full-range speakers and are a perfect match to the M50s due to the fact that all these speakers use the same complement of tweeters and mid-woofers(6.5")using the same internal crossover from woof to tweet, so with only the littlest bit of tweeking in my receiver, I can get seamless panning from each speaker to any other speaker in the system!

I'm using a 7.1 receiver and may well add two more M3s in back later. But the crossover point I'm using is 60hz on all speakers; to keep center channel voices out of the sub, and to take advantage of the fact that I'm using full range speakers in all locations. Most folks here aren't using full-range in all positions and are using the sub to take care of everything below about 80hz. Axiom center and surround speakers aren't designed to be full-range and need to be crossed at a higher frequency, in addition they also use only the 5.25" mid-woofer and have varying cross over points as relates to any speaker larger than the M22.

But, alas, the M50s are not for everybody! They are part of the group of Axiom speakers(M3 M40 and M50s)that are not as detailed and accurate as the remainder of the line. They seem to be designed more for the casual, but attentive, listener, than for the "Audiophiles" amongst us!!

The M60 owner can excitedly hear the tape splice pass over the heads!! The M50 owner would more often be annoyed by it!!!

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It is greatly appreciated. In my current set up my rear speakers are mounted from the ceiling directly behind the seating area. So, what I am getting from you guys is that the 2 rear speakers should be mounted on the wall to the right and to the left of the seating area. And if I go with 6.1 (3 rear speakers) than that one will have to be mounted from the ceiling almost directly over the seating area?

If this is set up this way, than the wire for the 2 rear speakers will be running through an exterior wall that will be insulated. Do you guy's use any kind of conduit in the walls for your wiring?

normally you want the rear speakers to be behind the listening area and not directly over head. Is your back couch/chairs right up against the back wall? The left/right surrounds will be great to the left/right of the listening area, especially if you can space them out somewhat. The quadpolar design will bounce sound all around you, unlike your normal 2-way bookshelf direct radiating speaker.

They will be spaced apart about 21'. The width of the room will be 22'. As far as the center rear speaker, I can move it behind the seating area but it will still be mounted from the ceiling. The back wall will contain a bar area. There will be about 8' between the front of the bar area and the back of the seating area.

I see you refer to the quadpolar design. Being a novice, I really do not know what you mean. I am guessing (from looking at the pictures) that you are refering to the souround speakers. They appear to have sound that comes from the top, bottom, and sides.

Sounds like you would be good to go then, when mounting from the ceiling, try to allow room for the top driver to breath. I found some black metal shelf brackets at Menards that I will be using, this will give my qs8's about 10-12" of room between the ceiling. Yes, your right about the surrounds, because of the design you get wrapped in sound. Two tweeters firing to the left and right, and two woofers firing up/down. In my setup, my left/right surrounds are about 20' apart and to the left/right of the listening area. The rear surrounds are about 6-8 ft behind the listeners. What some people do is before permately placing your speakers, use a couple of step ladders to experiment with placement.

Receiver question. Lets say for point of reference that this is the system I go with:

2 - M50 main speakers
1 - VP150 center channel
3 - QS8's surround speakers
1 - EP350 sub

When looking at recievers, how many watts per channel should I be looking at?

In reply to:

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When looking at recievers, how many watts per channel should I be looking at?

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As many as you want or can comfortably afford.
I recommend reviewing your personal requirements/preferences for hookups, features and options to search for a receiver. If you are a real power user and want beyond deafening sound levels at close range or in a huge room, then invest in a separate amp altogether. The receiver can still act as the preamp-processor and at that point, its wattage count is even less of a concern.

In reply to:

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how many watts per channel should I be looking at

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that can vary depending on what make of receiver it is. H/K's are commonly believed to underrate their receivers.. so, an H/K rated at 60-70 wpc, will most likely be as powerful as one rated a little higher by another maker. a good general rule of thumb would be to try and get anything rated at or higher than 80wpc. i have an onkyo 701 rated at 100wpc, and i have NEVER turned it all the way up, its just too loud.

i would reckon anything in that range (80-100wpc), will work just fine. and, in case you think you might want to add more power at a later date, make sure and try and get a receiver that has pre/pro capabilities.. that way, in a few years if the upgrade bug bites you, just go get yourself a rotel or outlaw amp, and you can hook it directly to the receiver, and have all the watts you could possibly want!!

bigjohn

I'm sure others will chime in with their input, but personally, I don't think that should be your biggest question. I would try to stay with reputible names: Onkyo, Denon, HK, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, etc.... I would stay away from Sony, JVC, Panasonic, etc... just my 2 cents There really isn't much difference when looking at a 80 watt/channel versus say 100 watts. The main thing to me was that the receiver is a High Current design, and the wattage is Full-Bandwidth rated, it should say that in the description of the receiver. There really is a lot of choices for you out there, depending on your price range.

Thanks everybody for the continued help. I started a similar post on another Home Theatre Forum about a week ago and have yet to get a response. As far as the reciever goes, maybe the Yamaha HTR-5890BL. I have a Yamaha reciever now and have been quite pleased. Plus with where I live, Mississippi, we are kinda stuck with a limited number of retailers (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.). After I have my plans drawn up, I will try to post the floorplan of the theatre room for any added suggestions.

Also keep in mind, I said "Help me build a system". So I am relying on your expertise. I have only dealt with the Bose 5.1 dual cube system. I am virtually ignorant about the full size systems and their capabilities.

Do you have an existing DVD player that you are planning to use? Sorry if you've answered this already.

Yes. It is a Sony. Do not have the model number with me. It has been okay. I have had problems with it. A lot of DVD's that I rent have a tendency to pause, skip around, etc. I assume that it is because of damage to the DVD. The ones that I buy, I don't have a problem with. I have sometimes thought that maybe it is too sensitive or something.

yamaha makes great receivers, but dont feel confined to the retail stores in your region.. you can find great deals on the internet from websites that have very respected histories, and will still offer you full warranties..

you would be more able to get a much better bang for buck ratio if you went with an online retailer.. just a suggestion..

bigjohn

I agree with BigJohn, I purchase most of my AV equipment online these days. Retail stores will normally charge List price. However, I did buy my Denon 2805 at American Electronics during an employee cost day, which saved me like 25% off List.