Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater reciever diffrences

Hey all
I found the people here very helpfull--and correct when i looked into my axioms
I currently have a pioneer vsx-811s reciever and was thinkin of maybe upgrading in the near future. I recently purchased the M60s,q8s and the v150. (luv em by the way)
i was wondering how much of a diffrence a reciever makes--will a better one give better surround--or just louder. I cant imagine the surround sound being better(although i didnt think it would be that much with the soeakers and was proved wrong).
The reciever i have seems loud enough,although i notice i need to play it louder with the axioms-guess thats the lower imp thing.
i have had pioneer for many years and would hate to drop money on another brand and have issues--but am very open minded. price range--hmmm guess 300-1000
but the closer to 1000 the more of a diff i will need to hear--(was worried about upgrd spkrs with wife but she loved them and ok'd it so same with reciever would apply)
thanks in advance very any input

Gabe, unless there's something specific wrong with your 811 a different receiver would be neither better nor "louder". Keep in mind that most of the time your M60s and other speakers will be using about 1 watt each. Occasional split-second peaks would take much more, but it's unlikely unless you're listening in a very large room at very high levels that your 811 doesn't have all the power that you need. If you want more up-to-date features okay, but that's a different matter.

I agree with John! Unless there are some features that you just want, or if you just must have some new gear, keep your old receiver.

The 811 is loud enough--just wondering if you get better sound with better reciever--like does one do a better job of surround sound--or a wider freq range. For example,if i got a higher end reciever,and played the same dvd at the same level from each reciever-would ther be a diff? Or is the surround aspect completly seprate from the reciever and just past through from the dvd player?

gabe: that's a tough one to call. There may be subtle differences in how the various brands do their "processing" which will result in a different sound. I do believe that different manufacturers use different chip sets in their hardware.

Guess that the only real way for you to tell is to listen to them in a common environment.

Good Luck!

There can be differences between brands and receivers in how well they do the surround decoding but AFAIK the differences tend to be very subtle -- not at all like the kind of improvement a better set of speakers gave you.

You *might* get a more noticeable improvement for the $$ by upgrading your sub, depending on what you have today.

do different processors make a differance on dynamics?

The bottom line is that different processors CAN make differences. The issue is DO they make differences? It would take some significant technical analysis, IMO, to determine the facts.

Sounds like ur just trying to find an excuse to buy another new toy.

I have the Denon 3805 and it does play loud. I am looking into an amp for my mains because, from what I've read, the amp may make the difference in sound AND also louder.

lol inane--part of me is
but when i ordered my axioms i told the missus if there wasnt a big diffrence i would return them----she pointed out the big diff.
but i always thought my old speakers sounded great--no i know what i was missing and am getting the same thought with the reciever. I have no problems keeping the 811 but i was reading about that microphone setup that automatically adjust the speakers for you---WAY COOL
but i dont wanna drop any money on a new one unless i know it will make a big diffrence in the suround sound.

gabe,
This was just posted in another thread.
Upgrade

bug: that is an excellent article and I think that the author explains it simply and to the point!!!

If your Denon is really doing what it is supposed to, I doubt that you will see any significance by going to 200 watt monos or seperate amp. If the Denon isn't, then I suspect that you will see a difference. I look forward to your "experiment."

Do you have a sound meter? If so, what level do you listen? Someone posted a link somewhere on this board yesterday that gave the conversion factors between sound level, speaker efficiency and output power. GREAT post. In my case, listening at 70-75 dB, I only need a few watts. Tomorrow I will try the experiment with NASCAR!

Notice in that article the picture of the Outlaw amp?

Depending on what you go with, yes, you will notice a difference. Don’t get all hung up on the whole “loudness” debate. It isn’t a matter of how loud it will play, but how well it sounds at higher volume levels.

I just looked at the specs on your pioneer, and would bet a paycheck that if you were to go with something like the HK 635, Denon 3805 or comparable, you will most definitely notice an improvement in overall SQ…..I’m not calling your receiver junk by any means, but it is an entry level AVR, and I suspect the wattage rating on it is very optimistic.

Rat,

I pulled that link from another poster but I agree about simple and to point.

Alan seems to think that the 80's only get better when amplified. He said he normally recommends 80 to 110 watts for most Axiom speakers but the 80's can handle lots of power.

I check sound levels frequently and normally I see 65-75 during tv conversation sequences. I tend to listen to dvds at that same level but it spikes to 90-95 during high action. Music - generally in the 80's, but if I'm in another room it's 95-100.

I did notice the Outlaw and noted that the article was dated 2001.

if im not mistaken,i think they test the m80s with over 400 wpc

Here is a word or two from Alan Lofft regarding the power handling of the M80's.

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if im not mistaken,i think they test the m80s with over 400 wpc

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I had a woofer go out on one of my 80s a couple of days after receiving them and thought for a second that maybe I had blown the the speaker out because the dbs were well above 100 with the Rotel amp. After speaking with the Axiom folks I was assured that my 300 watt amp wouldn't come close to blowing these speakers and it was nothing more than a defective driver, after futher conversation I was told that these speakers (80s) are tested with well over a thousand...(1200 I'm thinking) watts for several hours at a time.

Regardless of the watts they can handle, to me they just sound better than the 60s. Matter of fact I would almost bet that my pair of 60s will be sold off for another pair of 80s in the future.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

1200 watts??

They must be built like battleships!

bug: I am strongly leaning toward the Outlaw 990 pre/ processor and the new 790 amp (when it is actually offered). 300 watts per channel ought to be just fine. I may change my mind, but that is the way I am thinking right now.

I am also thinking about getting a pair of QS-8s. I also have wife approval. Isn't that nice??? I received a nice email from JC this afternoon describing the difference of using QS-8s versus M60s. I appreciate Axioms prompt and in depth response!

That will probably be followed by a SVS sub.

In the meanwhile, I am seriously looking at a new Samsung 61" 1080P wide screen TV. They should be out on the market in about 2 weeks. My son and I looked at on of the Samsung 720P set versus a Sony 1080P and there was no comparison. Well, we'll see.

When are you going to order your new amps??

Gabe, one of the updated features that I referred to in my previous reply could be a different surround sound processing system; for example some listeners prefer Logic 7(HK receivers)to DPLII for expanding two channel material to five or more speakers. However, as far as basic sound quality goes, if a receiver/amp has audibly flat frequency response and inaudibly low noise and distortion within its power limits, then it's providing transparent amplification and no real "upgrade" in that respect is possible. Don't be taken in by manufacturer hype.

it still seems that wha i am getting is more power or clearer at louder levels. I want to know if i will notice a wider range in frequency or more importantly better "theater quality surround sound". I watch alot of movies and hear things move front to back -left to right-or just on one side. I would ike like to know if a better (morew expensive) reciever will do the job better. I understand that a higher level reciever will have more bells and whistles, play at higher volumes cleaner. I am happy with the volume level of what i have--just curious if i can get better surround processing i guees is what i am after.
ALSO i have noticed peoples post about a meter..What exactly do you di with it and what kind of meter do u use and why?
I do appreciate all the posts. I just dont have the money to pour into upgrades, but i do what the best i can afford--or at least set my sights on.
thanks again

Gabe, the meter that is often mentioned here is one of these

It is used to measure sound pressure levels within your system. Basically you use it to make sure each speaker is outputting the same loudness for a nice balanced effect.

>>I want to know if i will notice a wider range in frequency or more importantly better "theater quality surround sound". I watch alot of movies and hear things move front to back -left to right-or just on one side. I would ike like to know if a better (morew expensive) reciever will do the job better.

In general, I think the answer here is "no a newer/better receiver is not going to make a big difference in that aspect of performance", at least for listening to 5.1 soundtracks on a 5.1 system.

Newer receivers tend to have new ways to expand from 2-5, 2-7, 5-7 or 6-7 channels (eg. the "ES" or "EX" decoding modes) but AFAIK there isn't a lot of difference when it comes to decoding a DD or DTS soundtrack.Better receivers can have better DACs to convert the digital bitstream into audio but I don't know enough to say how much audible difference that will make. I imagine the difference would be slight at best.

The areas you are talking about are more affected by speaker choice, placement, calibration, room acoustics etc...

You already have real good speakers so I would focus on the last three. A new receiver can give you some fancy automatic EQ which simplifies calibration and can sometimes help with room acoustics (via the EQ) but you still have to take them with a grain of salt... sometimes the auto-setup helps and other times it is just "a good source of ideas"

I guess we're all saying the same thing. If you upgrade to a nice new receiver you will probably notice a difference but most of the difference will be related to the bigger/better amplification not the other areas you mentioned.

I don't remember if you have already gone through the calibration exercise with an SPL meter and a disk like Avia. If not, that should definitely be your first step. Investment would be <$100 and the difference is usually fairly significant.

Rat,

After reading this, especially Alan's old newsletter, I wonder if a Sunfire 300 2 channel is in order. It would be 600 watts @ 4 Ohm.

Will the 790 be 300 @ 8? What @ 4? What spec have you read on the 790?

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I am also thinking about getting a pair of QS-8s. I also have wife approval. Isn't that nice???

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You know, whenever this A/V stuff really grabs you it sometimes hits you with such authority that the barbs get buried so deep you'll just never get away from it, no matter how hard you try....ain't that right Rat?

I think you'll really like the QS8s. Been raining down here all week so the wife and I have been watching quite a lot of movies, every now and again I'll look up at the QS8s and wonder how in the heck do those little speakers sound so good and disperse the sound so well.

I thank everyone for their input. Looks like i just need to get a meter and a avia disk to adj the sound levels for my room. Although this kinda brings up a new question--surround volume. I prefere to have my 2 sides and 2 rears at plus 3-5 over what i have the fronts,with the center being plus 1 somtimes. I like being blown away by the surrounds-although on some pooprly mixed dvds this doesnt work--when the loud music kicks in its overberring.
But all in all it looks like i dont NEED to upgrade the reciever but i may keep my eye open for one of the pioneers with the mic that auto detects and set each speaker(http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_4151_20157532,00.html)
mostly cause it sounds cool--:)
thanks again all

bug: gonk has posted a few links to information on the 790. The links are on the more recent 990 thread where I asked him for some information. Advanced information has each channel at 300 watts at 8 ohms. I don't remember the 4 ohms specs, but I think they were there. Of course, no one seems to know when it will be released, but Outlaw says before the end of the year.

I really wonder if going from 200-300 watts to 600 watts will make that much of a difference? The 200-300 watts will probably shake your house down, anyway. 600 watts may do it a little quicker! LOL!!!

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I prefere to have my 2 sides and 2 rears at plus 3-5 over what i have the fronts,with the center being plus 1 somtimes.

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Gabe, I'm assuming you are referring to the settings in your receiver being "plus 3-5 over" your fronts. That doesn't necessarily mean the SPL (sound pressure level) of the surrounds is actually 3-5 dB (decibels) more than your fronts. They may be. They may not be. It all depends on your distance from each speaker and the speakers themselves.

What the Avia or DVD disc and an SPL meter will do for you, is enable you to accurately set the relative volumes of your speakers EXACTLY the way you want them. You don't even need either disc to do calibrate your system, although still I recommend you purchase one . Once you get the SPL meter, your receiver is able to send pink noise test tones to each speaker and the meter will enable you to set them to matching or different volumes, as you choose.

I think it would be wise, initially, to set them to them to the same level just to see if that would please you. If you find that unsatisfactory, by all means set them to levels that you enjoy.

Here are a couple of tutorials that will help you with speaker calibration.

Essential Accessories: The Radio Shack Sound Pressure Level Meter

A Quick Overview of Home Theater Calibration