Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Technical Questions Clean Power

Has anyone used the Monster HTS-3600, or similar products? I'm considering buying one, but wanted some more info.

Thanks,

Rick

Anyone that does such a shoddy job of designing their power supply that noise is introduced into the system at a level that would be otherwise eliminated from a signal conditioner of sorts shouldn't get your money in the first place.

If you notice a difference with one (please use double blind testing to determine whether or not you do...), take back your receiver, NOW.

Alan, does Axiom demonstrate its speakers at consumer audio/electronics shows? If you do, what kind of receiver/amplification do you use? Do you use lamp cord for speaker wire, or do you use some kind of premium speaker wire? Does the Axiom demonstration package use any-old interconnects, or do you use interconnects from folks who purport to offer a premium interconnect? Do you use any power conditioning?

If you hear a difference with a power conditioner, I don't think you should return your receiver, I think you should share your good experience with those of us who do not have all the answers as to what makes a difference and what doesn't.

6spd, when I was talking to Joe at Axiom last year, he was saying that they have some Yamaha and Bryston amps. The Yamaha's have been absolutely bullet proof, and that during their blind listening tests, most people couldn't justify the price difference for such a little improvement in sound quality.

At home, Joe has Yamaha and Rotel amps. His system is amazing - when I was there last, he had 4 subs running. I'm not sure if they were the Ep-175's or the 350's. He has them hidden.

Right now I have a Rotel 1066 receiver, and the Rotel 1075 amp. So I don't think I have a quality problem. I'm going to buy a better surge protector instead of the power strip I'm currently using. So I thought I would look into the Monster clean power setup.

Rick

Hi,

No, we don't generally exhibit in consumer/trade audio shows. They are extremely expensive to participate in. We think it's better to pass the savings on to the consumer.

We use Bryston, Yamaha, and Denon amps, and we don't use designer speaker cable, up-market interconnects or power "conditioners". We use generic, good-quality 12- or 14-gauge copper cable, depending on the length of the run.

Under normal conditions, there is no need to "condition" the power from your local power company. Semi-on is correct in his comments on power supplies in amps and receivers and power conditioners.

Regards,

I'll take the chance to nit-pick here, Semi, if I may, as you are one of our resident scientists. (If I'm stuck on the job at 2 in the morning, away from my wife, kid, and home theater, I've got to pass the time somehow). Auditioning AV components can be blinded, but double-blinding isn't really possible.

In a double-blinded study, both the subject and the researcher are blind to the intervention in question. Double-blinding is seen largely in drug trials, where there is room for subjective bias of the results on both ends of the equation i.e. doctor and patient.

During an audition of AV equipment, you pretty much play the roles of both researcher AND research subject. As such, you can only be blinded once.

I suppose you could design a double-blinded study, but that would involve another person trying to objectively evaluate your reactions to the two components...not really essential to make a fair comparison.

fhw,

No, it is possible and indeed double-blind listening tests were conducted (I was a member of the listening panel on many occasions) at the National Research Council of Canada, Acoustics division, during the '80s and '90s. A technician assigned to the Acoustics (actually, Physics) division, who was not an audiophile, did all of the switching, collected the data, entered it and, at the end of the day, handed the results to Dr. Floyd Toole (who at the time was head of the division) and me (I was editor in chief of a Canadian audio-video magazine that contracted some of the testing).

Rene, the technician, is still at the NRC and supervises anechoic testing, listening tests, etc. Dr. Toole is now based in California and is vice-president of engineering for all of Harman's some 30 companies.

Moreover, if you can get hold of an ABX comparator, you can conduct a double-blind test of your own at home.

Regards,

fhw,
You've got it right when you say:

In reply to:

---

a double-blinded study, but that would involve another person trying to objectively evaluate your reactions to the two components

---

I agree with your idea of the hard to do double blind test especially if you are auditioning components in your own home. It is not 100% necessary to obtain an objective result but you do at least need 2 people to help with the cable switching/ component switching and the 'switcher' cannot be biased in telling you the results afterwards (unless of course you have a switch box of some kind which most people do not although someone would still have to setup the speakers to begin with), hence the point of the double-blind. If the person at least knows what the 2 brands are while they are switching cables, then here is where it becomes important to ensure a less biased attitude based on their lack of enthusiasm for a/v auditioning. A person who is less inclined to be emotionally moved by a subject is more likely to be more objective in reviewing it and this is about as close as you will get to a double blind test.
(e.g. your wife gets behind the speakers you brought home to audition, to switch the cables, while you sit on the couch listening for your preference between the brands. However, the wife likes speaker B b/c of the great rosewood finish and once your testing is done she tells you that the one you liked best by sound was speaker B...how much do you believe them?).

However, you can do a relatively simple and only mildly flawed, double blind test by finding that friend who really does not care about your home stereo or what you buy because they are more into hang gliding and windsurfing. Go into an a/v store, have someone setup say 2 sets of speakers you want to hear (on the same equipment) but allow this uncaring friend to do the switching of plugs. The listener would have to honestly keep their eyes closed during the tests and perhaps even before you sit down just so you can't try to isolate by eye and ear (or by watching woofer vibrations) which speakers are on and off.
Of course, if the store clerk would not allow your companion to do the switching or likes to yap alot then this method is moot since the employee will most likely tell you what was allegedly plugged in when you heard the best sound.
You can do this at home but getting speakers to bring back for auditioning can sometimes be troublesome.
As long as you have the friend who couldn't care less and a decent and patient a/v store around, you should be good, but i know this is usually asking for alot.

The point is taken, Alan, although I was referring to the real-world, in-the-home audition.

Thinking about it, double-blinding an AV audition certainly is possible, but I would invite a debate as to how much double-blinding really adds.

I think I put my foot in my mouth roughly one-in-two messages I post to this board. I really need to stop surfing the net on night shifts.

Chess,

As I wrote to Alan, the point is taken that a double-blind test is possible. It serves me right for trying to be clever at 2 in the morning.

However, I would argue that double-bliniding is unnecessary in an AV audition...so long as your friend (or the store owner) doing the A/B switching doesn't give a running commentary as to what each speaker sounds like to their ears, and doesn't tell you which speaker is A and which is B, the room for bias is minimal.

I'd be happy to carry on this debate, but I should probably just keep my foot in my mouth.

No foot in mouth there fhw.
I certainly agree with you that you do not need a double blind test to actually test but as you say, the person 'assisting' has to be completely mute during the process.
Often salesmen CANNOT remain quiet and you would still have to remove the visual cues from the testing perhaps with a blindfold. This might look a bit awkward walking into the a/v store though.

fhw,

You can order the ABX box Alan mentioned from several places online if you really want to do that sort of testing at home so it is certainly possible. I'd actually kill to find a store selling equipment and using ABX boxes or something similar.

The reason I specify double-blind is exactly for the reason Chess just mentioned. The sales guys rarely restrain themselves from biasing any comparison, for obvious reasons. Even subtle body language can play a major role in this.

But, ultimately, the reason I specify double-blind is because it is the only scientifically justifiable means from which to draw conclusions. The way audiophiles use absolute statements regarding speaker wire and the like requires fallsifiable proof. If they merely left it to subjective statements, I wouldn't protest so much.

Regards,
Josh