Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Swap M60 for M80?

Hello everyone,

I didn't get M80s due to my receiver not being able to properly handle the 4 ohm impedance. However, I am now getting upgraditis! I can blast the 60s pretty good, but want to go LOUDER!

Could I purchase the Outlaw 200 1 Channel amp to power M80s? Would it mess up the balance between the fronts powered by the Outlaw and the remaining channels being powered only by my receiver. My receiver is the Pioneer VSX-1015.

Thanks!!!!

Did you say louder? Huh? Mike if you decide to go m80 on us then yes you can use the preouts of your pioneer to use a pair of outlaw m200's. After you add the amp to your front channels simply recalibrate your speakers with an spl meter to achieve proper balance(levels) again.

Mike,

How loud are you playing them right now? Do you have an SPL meter you can use to measure it? I saw in a previous post that you have a Pioneer VSX-1015, which does 150W into 8 Ohms. This should be sufficient to drive the M60s to a level of around 110dB, which is EXTREMELY loud. Remember that a doubling in amp power (300W/channel) would only result in a 3dB increase in volume.

I invite you to play around with this SPL calculator. Use 93db as the efficieny of the speakers, and then plug in numbers to your heart's content.

3-6 dB increase is about all you can expect.

I agree about the SPL meter. Get a handle on how loud you are really listening.

If your speakers produce a "strained" sound, you might have a receiver problem.

You might benefit from the upgrade. If your speakers sound clean and tight at your levels, you're probably fine.

If you have upgraditis bad and you must have their best speaker and new amps......go for it!

I find it hard to believe that yours 60's aren't LOUD enough. My Denon 2805 and 60's combination is plenty loud, unless you want to go deaf. Don't get me wrong, I like cranking it up from time to time, and have been to many concerts with insane dB levels. I find it hard to believe your 60's don't make you happy.

I would try checking SPL, and possibly a different receiver before opinions of the 60's are made

60's 150 350 4-Qs8's
Denon 2805
Sanyo Z2 Projector
Toshiba DVD (soon to be panny s97s)
Samsung HD tuner

Wow! My set up comes at 110 dbs when I am blasting it. I guess that is loud enough :-)

Shane D

Grab a couple of the Outlaw amps AND a pair of M80's. You will love what the separate amps do for you !

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Grab a couple of the Outlaw amps AND a pair of M80's. You will love what the separate amps do for you !

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Ditto

Mike, your 1015 is a very powerful amp(including at 4 ohms, as tests have shown), so it's highly unlikely that you'd get a significant benefit from those 200 watt Outlaws. Balance results from calibrating the speakers to equal volume and doesn't depend on the particular amp in use.

one thing you could think of is getting some amps for your 60's to see if that will make you happy.. i have a 5 channel marantz, and it has no problem pushing the 60's that i have to any level of sound that i want them to go to... if you get the amp's which you are saying you might want to get anyhow, and try them with the 60's you have lost nothing, and you might find out that is all you needed.. on the other hand if you decide you want to still get the 80's then your already set up.. remember, for every 1 db it is 2X as loud.. i think......

Twice as loud is 3 dB.

You might want to check that number Rat.

No no. Twice the power (wattage) results in a 3dB increase. You need to increase by 10 dB to sound twice as loud.

It doesn't seem fair that doubling the power gets you only 3/10 of the way to twice as loud, but it's the truth.

Definitely give the SPL numbers a look. I threw in "Eye of The Tiger" from the Rocky collection today at 95-97 dBs and it was plenty loud for me. The M60s will get very loud most effortlessly.

Speaking from experience, I had the Yam rx-v1500 which was no sloch @110 w.p.c. with the 60s. I still have my 60s (not 80s) I also like to crank it up, the biggest difference is that it is not that much "louder" but with seperates (i have the Sunfire grand signature @ 600 w.p.c @ 8 ohms - 1200 w.p.c. @ 4 ohms)it is just so much better sounding. I feel it actully brought out the full potential of the speakers. It never sounded "bad" at high levels, it just sounds much better now. When I listen to loud levels, the speakers are much more detailed, and coherent, tight, smooth, there is not the audible quality drop off at extreme high volumes.

Jon....what SPLs are you taking here when you feel the headroom comes into play? Above 90? 95? Just curious when the difference starts to become apparent.

approx. 90db and up is most noticable. There is a better over all sound at all volumes, but a very big difference @ 90db+ there is a much more open-spacious sound at loud volumes.

I'm in agreement with you. Screw the math and listen. Who cares about "how loud" they'll play. Speakers just sound better with a few more amprees nipping them in the but. Even at low volume.

I don't understand the "screw the math" notion. If you were to screw the math, physics, and science, you wouldn't have an amp, source, or speaker in the first place..

At low volumes, with a well designed amp(HK does have slightly higher distortion itno 4 ohms than a usual amp, around 0.2% - and the wattage barely increases, which could indicate slight problems with a 4 ohm load, which could be why it doesn't sound as perfect as your rotels with a 4 ohm load), 50 watts and 500 watts won't matter because you're using such a small fraction of the 50 watt amp's full output power..

Thasp, I am not so sure about "screw the math" I never quite said that. But I know sound. My wife was so opposed to me buying amps/processors of this dollar amount. She likes good music/good eqipment, and appreciates more than most, but she thinks I am obsessed LOL, once I got it all in, and we argued a bit, I made dinner and kissed her a$$ for a few days. She said, "I cannot believe the sound", "I hate to admit it, cause I feel you will some how upgrade more-something else" The overall sound is so much better. I felt the same way, but could not help but wonder if I was justifying things. I don't know, but I know what I hear, wattage IS math, but ears don't lie.

What I was getting at, is that folks get too rapped up in the whole loudness debate and start throwing mathematical scenarios into the mix. …..”it takes twice as much wattage to get 3 more db’s of volume”. That’s not the point, or reason to go with a higher current amp. What a person should strive for, is to get the cleanest supply of power they can afford. A mainstream 100 WPC receiver will not typically have a great power supply. On paper, going with 200 wpc amp would be overkill, but in reality, it’s just the next step up the food chain in cleaner power.

If one were to rely strictly to mathematical theories and calculations, then a five watt amp would be all that anyone would ever need.

Jon, I think Thasp was replying to Mdrew concerning the "screwing the math" part.

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50 watts and 500 watts won't matter because you're using such a small fraction of the 50 watt amp's full output power..

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That's a rather broad statement don't you think ? How is it you know everyones listening habits ? There have been folks I know that went from a 75 or 100 watt receiver ( not cheap crap either ) to a good 200 watt amp and are very satisfied with the upgrade.Folks can quote theory after theory and it doesn't amount to a hill of beans until a person listens for themselves.Audio is such a personalized thing that only one person can make a judgement like that and that is the one who is doing the listening.

Amen Wid.

Of _course_ it'd make a difference in some situations. However, I was replying to the fact that people claim that they make a difference at low volumes also,

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There is a better over all sound at all volumes

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which simply isn't true IMO, in the case of comparing two well designed amps. 50 wpc, if you listen at reasonably low levels, would be more than enough. If at most you use 10 wpc on a dynamic peak: wheather the amp can deliver 50 wpc or 500 wpc wouldn't matter, was my point.

I'm sure there are people who can blaze through 100 watt amps easily in big rooms with dynamic source audio played at high levels. I like lots of progressive metal that has clean dynamic peaks that, in a big room, could probably get a 50 wpc amp to clip easily. I'm also sure that those 7.1 100 wpc receivers you see in kmart or costco will suck since they're not well designed, but a well designed amp that isn't extremely powerful will do just as well at low levels as a higher current amp.

If you're looking for volume into a 4 ohm load - definately go for the outlaws. Even receivers that can power a 4 ohm load usually don't do it as well as an amp can since they have to fit so many amps into a very cheap box. You'll get much more volume.

Check the Yamaha 2*00 measurements at audioholics: into a 4 ohm load, even their $1000+ receiver has problems with a 4 ohm load, so I would definately recommend seperates for a 4 ohm load

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There is a better over all sound at all volumes

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I can see the point you are trying to make but neither one of us can tell the op of that statement that they are wrong.We have no idea what they are hearing.That's my point.Like I said before it only matters to the one doing the listening.No amount of theory and mathematics will convince a person otherwise if indeed they hear a difference.

Yes, unless we're unconcerned with reality we have to be concerned with the math. At the moderate levels mentioned, Dr. Ohm's math teaches us that the speaker is using no more than a few watts of power and less than an ampere of current; discussion of high power or high current in that context is therefore meaningless.

Our ears and our other senses often can deceive us and we simply can't "just trust our ears", in the silly phrase whose origin is lost in antiquity, but may well have come about when a desperate audio salesman could come up with no factual basis for his claims. The only circumstance in which we can reasonably trust our ears is in a properly controlled blind test in which all factors are held constant. As Dr. Toole commented to an AES meeting during a presentation on blind testing techniques:" If you can see what you're listening to, you can't hear it".

The Stereo Review blind listening test can again be pointed out; the results compared with the before-test comments of some listeners illustrate that the sincerity of their beliefs couldn't change the fact that they were wrong.

Well, a second Amen to Mdrew and wid, gosh (did I just say gosh???) I am not here to promote seperates or amps or anything else, I KNOW what makes my Axioms sound better. I had a Sony (I am not ripping on Sony - as I don't want to offend anyone!) then went to my Yam 1500 and it sounded much better, in my present set up there is literly no comparison, same room, speakers etc. just sharing a great sound experience, not a tit - for - tat.

Oh don’t worry about it John. This is like discussing evolution or God. I’d prefer to believe that I was created, and am not an ape. Although I’ve been told I act like an ape from time to time. Uh-oh……maybe I did waste a bunch of money.

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I’d prefer to believe that I was created

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I'd prefer to believe I was a millionaire, but...

Haven't we been through this in the last week.

Mikei is encouraged to read the amplifier thread! Link

Either way, it makes for some pretty interesting discussions.

Picture two Australopiticecenes sitting around discussing(or attempting to discuss)why one hollow log reverberates better than another one.

Hmmmmm......

No..No..I'm not referring to any of you guys! Just referring to the evolution of audio discussions in general!!
Rich.