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#327996 - 11/10/10 03:02 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: CV]
casey01 Offline

Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 838
Loc: Toronto
Originally Posted By: CV
Originally Posted By: casey01
When it comes to sub evaluations, the reason why I have always been a little skeptical to the approach is that despite the good intentions of determining and comparing performance, given their specific purpose and limited frequency range, it always seems in the end, reviewers tend to lean toward those subs that have the capability of achieving the highest SPL levels at the lowest frequency ranges with the least distortion. Tell me something that I don't already know.

The thing that people don't already know seems to be how each company's top model compares to every other one, thus the comparison. Individual sub evaluations I can see the pointlessness of for consumers. So the sub reviews well. But why would a consumer go for this particular model over what all of the competition is offering? The problem is that all of this gear is expensive, so it's not like a lot of people are going to have meaningful input like you can get with customer reviews of more affordable products. We're stuck with the very occasional comparisons which never covers near enough of the offerings. It's always going to be a bit of a shot in the dark in this hobby. Still, I'm not against Audioholics or any other outlet doing what they can to assist consumers. There SHOULD be a reason to choose one product over another.

I would say, regardless of anyone's philosophy on the subject and how we make our choices before hard earned money is spent, I guess, in the final analysis, we should be thankful for the great number of choices available to choose from and for the most part, the vast majority of them are quite good.

#327999 - 11/10/10 03:42 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: casey01]
tomtuttle Offline

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8462
Loc: Tacoma
I appreciate that you are all focusing on the substance of reviewing subwoofer performance, here. But I think there is a bigger story.

The reason why this is news is because Gene DellaSala chose to make it news by publishing what I think is a pretty nasty, whining editorial. The focus of his diatribe is that "shootouts are a pain, and here's why". Oh, my, the kitchen is hot! I shall wallow in it! DellaSala and his crew are presumably getting paid to opine about their hobby, and nobody but their staff decides on their methodology or messaging. Deciding to do a shootout and then complaining about the dynamics is tiresome, and helps no one. I hope it was cathartic for DellaSala, or something.

Audio is a business for Axiom and for the other represented manufacturers. It is how all the people employed by those companies put food on the table for their families. There is a LOT of risk involved in a subwoofer shootout, because even savvy consumers (unlike Robert Pirsig) believe that you can quantify quality. There is very little upside for any established company. Before participating, any prudent manufacturer would have to trust both the methodology and the editorial biases of the reviewer. And I believe that DellaSala's editorial proves there is a breakdown in trust, if not worse.

Where DellaSala lost it for me is his obvious commingling of the advertising and editorial sides of the Audioholics business. Tsk tsk. Whatever journalistic integrity they may have had is now squandered for me. The entire "Groundplane" section of his editorial is - to me - very clearly "payback" for Axiom pulling its advertising. Which certainly begs the question - if you are going to "payback" former advertisers, why shouldn't I think you are "paying off" current advertisers?

I don't care how Axiom or any other manufacturer spends their advertising dollars - again, it is their business. I do object to being told how rigorous and objective your methods are while you are openly bitter about lost advertising revenue. I thought that Paul Apollonio's last paragraph was particularly McCarthian - "if you don't want to be interrogated, you must have something to hide!"

Puhleeze. Combined with recent assertions about lack of impartiality due to the product lines carried in the Audioholics store, this episode makes me want to boycott anything and everything on that site.

Edited by tomtuttle (11/10/10 03:44 PM)
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

#328001 - 11/10/10 03:57 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: tomtuttle]
EFalardeau Offline

Registered: 08/27/07
Posts: 3339
Loc: Laval, Quebec, Canada
+1 Tom!
E = MC2 = ((2M80 + VP180 + 4QS8)/(EP800 + EP500))^(ADA1500 x D2v)

#328002 - 11/10/10 03:58 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: EFalardeau]
Ken.C Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 18029
Loc: NoVA
+5 Tom!
I am the Doctor, and THIS... is my SPOON!

#328003 - 11/10/10 04:00 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: EFalardeau]
RickF Offline

Registered: 02/26/05
Posts: 5210
Loc: Vero Beach, Florida
+2 Tom ... I very rarely go to their site anymore.
Our Room


#328004 - 11/10/10 04:01 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: EFalardeau]
Adrian Offline

Registered: 12/27/08
Posts: 6772
Loc: It's all about the location.
Well said, Tom.

+46...or is THE number 42?....I can never remember.

Edited by Adrian (11/10/10 04:03 PM)
Half of communication is listening. You can't listen with your mouth.

#328005 - 11/10/10 04:15 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: Adrian]
2x6spds Offline

Registered: 03/16/02
Posts: 2820
Loc: CA, USA
Axiom's EP 600 costs more than $1,800, the EP 800, more than $2,300. Have we not seen a non-trivial number of posts regarding owner problems with Axiom subs on this website?

How would a manufacturer like to see its $2,000+ subwoofer compared unfavorably to an $800 effort from an outfit like Epik? I think I understand why Gene expressed his frustration about manufacturer reactions to an honest shootout - they don't want to participate in an honest shoot out. What they want is glowing reviews in the form of ADVERTORIALS, which are nothing more than advertisements dressed up as an objective review.

Now, as for me, I came to Axiom through some very favorable reviews of the M3 by Ian Masters and others.

There have been shootouts of book shelf speakers in which Axiom's M3s have done very well. I heard nothing about any reluctance from Axiom about a head to head comparison between the M3s and the competition. That's because Axiom's M3s and M22s are Giant Killers.

Of course, Axiom made its reputation on low priced speakers with high end sound quality, in other words, Giant Killers.

Axiom's subs are not low priced. No, they're GIANT PRICED. Better to be a Giant Killer than a humiliated giant. Now, I don't know how Axiom's subs compare to subs from other manufacturers, but it seems like Axiom doesn't want a head to head comparison. That says a lot to me.

Now, I like Axiom products, and every book shelf and floor stander I've bought for the past 10 years (except for a pair of Thiels and Dahlquists) have been made by Axiom. But I'm not here to make excuses for Axiom, or to line up with the faithful when it appears Axiom may not have the confidence in its subs to put them up against the competition unless they're all standing on 90' poles.

Edited by 2x6spds (11/10/10 04:21 PM)
Enjoy the Music. Trust your ears. Laugh at Folks Who Claim to Know it All.

#328007 - 11/10/10 04:23 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: 2x6spds]
chesseroo Offline

Registered: 05/13/02
Posts: 5117
Loc: western canada
There has been an age old 'grumble' about Axiom subs. They cost a ton more compared to SVS and Hsu, and the reviews on the latter brands have always been raving. If SVS and Hsu had more than the plain black options 8 years ago when i was researching, it is likely i would own a Hsu or SVS today over an Axiom sub.

The Axiom subs just didn't seem to find that same good price point like their other speakers have, sadly.
"Those who preach the myths of audio are ignorant of truth."

#328008 - 11/10/10 04:25 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: 2x6spds]
tomtuttle Offline

Registered: 06/20/03
Posts: 8462
Loc: Tacoma
Very fair points, Phil.

I guess my question would be - did any other manufacturers decline to participate in the Audioholics shootout, and were they also publicly disparaged (albeit with a thin veil) in an editorial?
bibere usque ad hilaritatem

#328009 - 11/10/10 04:29 PM Re: Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout [Re: 2x6spds]
medic8r Offline

Registered: 02/05/06
Posts: 6459
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia
You could be right, 2x6, or it could be that Axiom has a genuine issue about the methodology of the shootout.

And, Tom, well-said as usual.
Bears, beets, Battlestar Galactica.

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