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#52889 - 08/04/04 07:25 PM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16326
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Not a bad idea. Would be much better than borrowing from China to fund the recent tax refund checks.
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

#52890 - 08/04/04 07:28 PM Re: OT: politics
SpockTheater Offline

Registered: 04/06/03
Posts: 220
Loc: Shreveport, Louisiana
Ok guys, I must say that this is BY FAR the best Political thread I’ve ever had the absolute joy of reading. *applauds to all* Another message board that I read has now banned political discussions due to the immature idiots there. Anyway, being a Conservative, over-opinionated Southern boy (without the accent) I just can’t keep it too myself any longer. Now did I just stereotype myself? *scratches head*

Well, after reading most of all the posts, up to the gay marriage discussions, which is next, I wanted to add the Africa talks. I’ve now reached the conclusion that the “socially aware” media who knows all is feeding us the Iraq feast, while the real party is (not a flying one for any Douglas Adams fans) going on in Africa. I’ve been reading over the past couple of weeks about what’s going on in Darfur, Sudan and it’s quite sickening. As usual, it’s the same Muslims vs. non-Muslims (Christians perhaps) activity. One million innocent, trying to survive, people have left their own homes so they don’t have to have their daughters and wives raped for 4 – 6 hours at a time by up to 6 different men or be one of the 50,000+ (UN latest estimate) killed since this started last year. Also the Arab militias, called Janjaweed are keeping foreign aid from reaching the starving people. The irony is that the UN is just sitting around pondering the definition of the word “genocide” instead of actually doing anything about it. (nothing new there) The US has basically said, “keep this up and you’ll get a big spankin’”. I’m glad to see that we are taking a stand against this atrocity. In terms of the big picture, this seems to be another phase in our “War on Terror” and if anyone feels that this isn’t terrorism, maybe they should go live there and see if they survive.

Sadly however, to me Africa can seem like a bit of a lost cause sometimes. Since now they are protesting our word in the ordeal and deny that they have a problem. Also given the fact that they believe that a woman canNOT get pregnant from being raped and that a raped woman is now “unclean” and can’t be taken back her “husband”. Add these to 2x6spds’s insightful reports. The harsh reality to face is that the problem here is solely a corrupt government protecting their power and an ignorant society that’s blind to it. Also, even if we do something about it, the terrorist groups will still hate the US just for our existence alone. Honestly the only solution to this is to educate the African population and empower them to revolt against their own government with a civil war. Sad resolution, but sometimes war is an unavoidable remedy. Sorry if this seems to be last week’s news, but I just had to rant for a bit. Carry on.

PS - 2x6spd, I might not agree with you about expensive speaker cables, but WOW!! I’ll discuss politics with you any day of the week.

#52891 - 08/04/04 07:44 PM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
Why do you even need the flat tax? Just the national sales tax based on what we spend, and we wouldn't have to do taxes every year any more either

Only issue I see there is any "black market" that people buy and sell while avoiding the national sales tax. It would have to be a significant chunk of $ if this was the only way for govt. to get income.

BTW...I don't even know that I agree with this idea, I just came up with it as reading through this stuff. I would have to think about it a little more to determine what I thought would work best.

#52892 - 08/04/04 10:59 PM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
WOW, I step away to have a baby and look where this thread goes….gotta love it. Yes, I now have a beautiful baby girl named Alexandra. I can’t stop staring at her….completely enamored with her.

OK….let’s dig in while her and the wife are sleeping:

1. Disgust with ‘the rich’ - I find it interesting to hear everyone’s disgust of the rich. Yes, I too roll my eyes at the utter excess that I see driving around here in Atlanta or when watching Cribs or other shows of the like. However, I don’t have the resentment that I hear in many people’s opinions. I’m not sure if this stems from jealousy or that sense of entitlement thing that I was preaching about earlier in this thread. Regardless, I think people need to stop and realize that ‘the rich’ are a necessary component of a capitalist society. Our system is arranged around the concept of innovation and determination to obtain wealth. Everything that we do is to make money. Look at what we now have thanks to that search for wealth – railroads, oil wells/refineries, automobiles, computers, pharmaceuticals, radiology, vaccinations, Axiom speakers, Velcro, air travel, mass transit, skyscrapers, television, refrigeration, the Internet, the telephone, the cell phone……The list is never-ending. All of these inventions came about because someone recognized a need in society and made the effort to meet that need, which, in turn resulted in the need being met and their acquisition of wealth. You may want to hate these people, but they are the ones that are responsible for this country being the world power that it is today. You may want to hate the “Robber Barons”, but to do so is irresponsible. Bill Gates may seem like a money-grubbing fiend worthy of hatred, but his contributions to this countries economy are beyond description. Just take a look at what you are typing on right now.

2. Kerry – I’m getting pretty damned tired of hearing about his service in Vietnam. Let me preface that I think that questioning anyone’s service in the armed forces is generally inappropriate unless one has served. That being said, Kerry has opened up the door by using his service as the support structure for his campaign. We are continually pounded by the message the service record of this war hero makes him appropriate to serve as the Commander and Chief of this nation. The problem I find with this comes when you do a little research about Kerry’s actual war record. From what I have read in accounts from swiftboat captains that served with Kerry, the incidents for which he received his awards are definitely questionable, consisting of superficial wounds and exaggerated situations. No matter how much the dems want to paint that group ( as a bunch of partisan henchman, I find it hard to believe a man that takes a video recorder into combat to reenact combat activities and mock interviews over the bulk of his fellow swiftboat captains that dispute his war record and his readiness for the role of President. Kerry did whatever it took, including going over the heads of his superiors, to obtain the necessary medals to guarantee his rapid departure from Vietnam and his future role in politics.

3. Taxes & “Fair Share” – I love it when this comes up. Democrats want the rich to pay their “fair share” of the taxes. They will, however, never acknowledge the well-known statistics that show that the top 5% of wage earners pay over 50% of all taxes….top 50% of wage-earners pay over 95% of all taxes. To do so would have to acknowledge the fact that they are paying the entire tab. Like those merry days of ‘ole, the rich are robbed to pay the poor. At the tip of a gun, the government takes 5 months of your pay to fund it’s racket, which continues to fuel unending beurocratic entitlement programs that were well-intended, but have become a scourge on our society by creating a class of people latched to the nipple of the government.

4. Mark – Great to see another person inspired by John Stossel’s book. What a wonderful book…..really peels back the onion to show you how really screwed up the system is and how truly brainwashed many Americans are.

5. Healthcare positions – Kerry is swinging around the bait to the entitlement crowd promising the same healthcare to all citizens that is enjoyed by the members of Congress. Man, I got cold sweats when I heard that. He finally said it…..he is promoting socialized medicine. Equal healthcare for all. How the hell does he think he is going to fund this…..with the tax-cut roll-backs?…wrong. He’s going to do so by raising taxes on the middle and upper class, which translates to everyone. So, again, my paycheck that I work damned hard for gets scalped to fund the healthcare of those that have made a choice not to pursue their education and the resulting higher paying jobs. Should I get cheaper healthcare than they do?…you’re damn right I should. I work my butt off for my company and they pay a ton of money to the insurance carriers that provide that care to me. As others have said, affordable healthcare is not a guarantee in society. It’s a luxury that is earned by those willing to pull their own weight in society. For everyone else, there are safety nets to provide for them until they decide to move ahead. Man, that sounds cold, but it’s how I feel. People like my own damn Mom think they are owed quality healthcare when they make the choice to piss away their savings and neglect their responsibility to make their own way in society.

6. Stem Cell Research – People need to get over this notion that people will start terminating pregnancy for this research. That termination will happen no matter what. The question is whether or not the idea of offending the beliefs of one group is worth the greater good of humanity….the potential medical breakthrough that could drastically affect the health of millions of people worldwide.

7. Gay Marriage – Man, I got scared for this thread when this topic came up. This issue above many will often fuel argument and polarization. My personal view is in line with a few of you that have discussed the idea of separation of legal unions and the religious concept of marriage. This is hard for many religious people to accept, but marriage is a legal union in the eyes of the law, one that guarantees a set of rights and responsibilities. In this context, to deny this right to gay couple is discrimination, pure and simple…as much as past laws denying interracial marriage. It’s another example of religion infringing into the function of law and the state and our country is so damn homophobic that they won’t listen to reason and accept their culpability in this injustice.

8. Homosexuality – First of all, I find it so frustrating to hear people refer to homosexuality as a matter of choice. Does anyone honestly think that anyone in their right mind would choose to be gay?….choose to be the target of such animosity and discrimination?…choose to be shunned in the eyes of so many people? It makes absolutely no sense. There are too many stories of people growing up in the same environment, yet maintaining different sexual dispositions. The problem is that many refuse to acknowledge this because it would mean that their religious beliefs and teaching might be flawed.

9. Homosexuals and Adoption – Let’s get something straight, us straight people haven’t really proven our mastery of the act of raising children and maintaining healthy households….at least not enough to caste stones at gay couples. We continue to watch and sometimes celebrate the birth of babies to ignorant 17 year olds and welfare families that can’t understand the concept of birth control, yet we want to deny a family of two loving people willing to adopt and raise a child that may otherwise grow up in foster care, etc.

10. Infringing on established traditions – Man, I get tired of this argument. It’s been used throughout history to justify discrimination, injustice, and intolerance. Down here in Georgia, the Flaggots (Neil Bortz’s catch-phrase) come out in droves every time the issue of the confederate flag comes up. They chant the usual cries of tradition and are unwilling to admit that the flag is disrespectful to the incredibly large population of African-Americans here in Georgia. They mask their racist intent under the disguise of concern for tradition….too bad the flag was only adopted in the last 50 or so years as a protest to the federal desegregation movement.

11. Infringing on Liberties – I think that we as a people have forgotten that the purpose of government is to protect the life and liberty of its people. When you apply that tenet to many of these issues, you have to admit that government power is abused to deny the rights and liberties of others. Gay marriage does not affect anyone’s liberties except those that you would deny that right. Everyone else is simply using government power to oppress others. Some reading this will roll their eyes saying that I’m one of those ‘legalize pot libertarians’. Before you do so, please tell me how someone’s use of marijuana affects your liberty? It doesn’t. Any issues concerning driving, workplace, etc are legal issues just like DUI. The act that infringes on the rights of others is what should be illegal, not the one that doesn’t. Otherwise, alcohol should be illegal. These types of infractions are all over the place. We have become so government-happy that we have allowed it to be used to infringe on the rights and liberties that it is supposed to protect.

12. Flat Tax – Great Idea!!! Our tax structure is in dire need of an overhaul. Plus, we could really get everyone paying their “fair share”.

I’m sure that I’ve pissed a few people off by now….sorry, sleep deprivation has washed away all the sugarcoating.

OK….off to bed. The baby is asleep for now, so need to catch what little sleep I can.

#52893 - 08/05/04 03:13 AM Re: OT: politics
pmbuko Offline
shareholder in the making

Registered: 04/02/03
Posts: 16326
Loc: Leesburg, Virginia
Pissed someone off? I thought you were doing a nose dive with #1, but you pulled out of it quickly. You make complete sense.

The only problem I have with #1 is that I think you misunderstand the disgust some people have. I might not agree with some of Bill Gates' business practices. but he certainly worked hard to get where he is. I admire self-made men and women. The people that disgust me are the current flock of child millionaires who flaunt their money but contribute absolutely zero to society. Take Paris Hilton, for example. People like her should have to pay a "waste of human flesh tax"... Ok, so that's a bit overboard... I didn't really mean it -- but then again, I didn't edit it out, either.

Oh, and congrats on the baby!!! I hope my second (whenever the time comes) will be a girl.
"I wish I had documented more…" said nobody on their death bed, ever.

#52894 - 08/05/04 03:30 AM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
I'll definitely have to agree with you on this one. The stupidity of some of those MTV debutantes is mindblowing....or in Paris' case... something else. The Hilfigger girl on that MTV show defined self-centered ignorant prima donna.

#52895 - 08/05/04 03:31 AM Re: OT: politics
AdamP88 Offline

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 639
Loc: Omaha, NE
Wow Turbo, on the whole you make some excellent points.

With regards to #2, while I do agree Kerry has been a bit too eager with the Vietnam card, apparently Kerry's videotapes from Vietnam are less reenactments as they are just simple journals of the places the battles took place. I'm searching for the link (knew I should've bookmarked it!), but a journalist who initially criticized Kerry for reenacting battles later viewed over 40 hours of those videotapes and came to the conclusion that it was more of a sort of postcard "I was here" journal not uncommon with soldiers at the time, with little reenactment or Kerry playing the hero. Dammit I need to find that link.

I completely agree with you on points 6 through 11. Well said.

#52896 - 08/05/04 03:37 AM Re: OT: politics
spiffnme Offline

Registered: 04/01/03
Posts: 5219
Loc: Los Angeles
Great post, and congrats on the little one! Just a quick response to your excellent points.

1) disgust with the rich - My only issue with the super rich is when they whine about paying so much taxes.

2) Kerry/Vietnam - I think the only reason his Vietnam service is being crammed down our throats (I too am tired of hearing it) is because one of the only issues in which Kerry polls lower than Bush is in the roll as a military leader.

3) I'd like to see some sources behind those numbers.

4) I need to pick that book up.

5) Healthcare - OK...we kind of disagree on this one. I don't personally think good healthcare should be a luxury of the well off,

6) Yep...and even calling it a pregnancy is pushing it. This is research that should be fully supported.

7) I too was worried, but I think we all handled ourselves very well. Needless to say I agree with you 100%, Can I tell you how much those Fox "reality" shows like "Who wants to Marry a Millionare" piss me off? It's the biggest slap in the face you can imagine. Yeah...YOU can't get married, but we'll have a game show and have two complete strangers get hitched because he's rich. GRRRRRRR...

8) Again...100% agreement. Coming out was very stressfull, as I didn't know how my friends and family would react. Thankfully my family is cool, and I clearly know how to choose friends well. Not everyone is so lucky though. Too suggest I, or anyone else "chose" to be gay is ridiculous.

9) Again...100% agreement.

10) This is getting tedious...again we're in agreement.

11) Yep again...and I too believe drugs should be legalized. Honestly...for those of you who do NOT use drugs, is it because they're illegal? Doubtful. All you have to do is look at the days of Prohibition, and look at all the crime involved in bootlegging and see that the "war on drugs" is pretty much the same exact thing. Legalize the damn things, tax the [censored] out of them, and require a doctor's prescription to get them. It'll eliminate a HUGE amount of crime, get LOT's of addicts into rehab programs, and raise a TON of revenue for the government.

12) Flat tax...hmmm...I'm on the fence on this one. On the surface it seems like a really logical idea, but I'd need to know some more info before I could fully support it.
"A nation cannot prosper long, when it favors only the prosperous." -President Barack Obama

#52897 - 08/05/04 10:03 AM Re: OT: politics
TurboDog1 Offline

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 342
I still have do disagree with you about the rich whining about paying more taxes. Why shouldn't they? They pay the bulk of them....plain and simple. It probably wouldn't be so hard for them to pallet if it weren't for all of the rampant abuse that they constantly hear about. I think that everyone wants to help his fellow man to a degree, but it is really hard to swallow paying so much damn taxes and watching the government piss it all away.

Here are some links:
Fair Tax Site
Tax Distribution Stats

It sounds like we are not going to fully agree on healthcare availability. I would just ask that you be careful with classifying good healthcare with luxuries. Don't forget that people's healthcare is funded out of their own paychecks, both in direct contributions and by employer contributions, which are in turn a part of their pay package. It's not a's earned. That's the key word...."earned"...people advocating socialized medicine want to give affordable healthcare to all. When you pull back the rhetoric, you will see that what they want is for the paying taxpayer to subsidize the healthcare of the needy. That's not necessarily a problem if we are talking about basic care. However, it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the American taxpayer wants to make sure that those not paying taxes don't have to pay more than $5 for a copay....especially when they'll spend a hell of a lot more than that for a gameboy for their kid or a set of chrome rims for their tires.

Drug War - It's a complete joke. We waste billions on it and have not reduced the influx of drugs into this country. We never will. Like you said, legalize it and then tax it. Like cigarettes and alcohol, people will still pay for it. is finally asleep again. I'm off to take a cat-nap.

#52898 - 08/05/04 11:29 AM Re: OT: politics
Zarak Offline

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 1849
Loc: PA
I'm reading the fair tax page...specifically the FAQ section. Some issues it raises.

1. I could potentially see this generating even some extra income, since all of the tourists that come to the US would be subject to this consumption tax, where they are not taxed by us now. By the same token, this could cause some of those countries to get upset with us and/or reduce tourism in the US. I wouldn't be excited about being taxed at 23% in another country after already paying my income taxes over here.

2. At one point it said taxes on food and such aren't exempt to prevent loopholes from being developed later, but then it goes on to say in #12 "money to build job-creating factories, finance research and development to create new products, or fund charitable activities " isn't this the type of exemption they were trying to avoid.

Ok number 12 in the list is as far as I've made it. I've got to get back to work...I'll have to read the rest later and add another post if needed.

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