Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion The Water Cooler De-sensitized zone?

Like most families, we have had our share of spats, arguments, and out-and-out fights on the boards. A number of suggestions came up over various threads in the last couple of days, and I think it would be a good idea if we talked about them.

I think it's unrealistic to ask people not to post about any controversial topics since you're such a chatty bunch, but I think we can look for a solution to this so that it doesn't result in members being offended enough to leave over them.

As a first suggestion, we can make a new section for this sort of thread - an 'at-your-own-risk' sort of place to bring up those topics that you are burning to discuss. As part of this, I think we should also move threads that become hot in those ways down to that section. Typically we haven't taken a really active moderator role in things like that, but if that is the next evolution of the boards than I guess we should.

For those of you who don't know Axiom's stand on people's posts and deleting them, we do believe that you stand on what you have said. I think that constantly deleting offensive posts in fact encourages them - people figure the insult will magically be erased and I don't think that is healthy. Just my opinion.

I would also like to point out that we now have the option of putting someone on our 'ignore' list, and that might be a good idea to use as well.

There's my piece - please reply with your thoughts and hopefully we can come to a resolution. Eg - assigning one of our crazy new graemlins to let other members know - gently - that they're crossing a line! Better suggestions welcome.

Sounds good to me. I was a part of a recent thread that was twisted this way and that, and people would defend their comments by slamming others and so forth. In general, we all get along pretty well, so this sound be good.

I also like the idea of being able to ignore someone, but the problem is, we have had the rare user come in, just flame people like crazy, and so forth. They were asked to leave because it was so bad. Anyway, my example is this. Let's say that someone chooses to ignore me, I know, I'm sooo tough on people, then I could keep slamming that person and they wouldn't even know it.

Stick with the "At your own risk" forum, and don't worry about the ignore. It will just hide the issues.

Amie, I think a De-sensitized zone is a great idea, should help in keeping the forums on topic

I just don't think having a war zone will help. Some folks will go to war over any issue.

It is easy for me to decide when I wish to ignore a thread.

I can see both sides... A Desensitized zone would make sense to avoid clashes in other parts of the forums and keep threads on subjects. But as bugbitten mentioned this zone could encourage conflict since it would come accross as an area where anything can go (which I'm sure isn't what Axiom wants).

I don't think there's an easy answer really... I have to say that I enjoy this forum and the maturity of the posters and I really hope we can keep it that way and minimize threads that go crazy. Most of us come on here to read and talk about Axiom - audio/video, and I think we would all apreciate it if people would keep that in mind when they post. I can find political/religious/etc arguments in any forum... I can't find such a great forum as we have here anywhere else and I think we should keep it that way guys.

Ok my rant/monologue is over.

I agree with Bugbitten, this is a speaker forum, there are plenty of blogs and other forums they can go to if they want to talk about that stuff. I would say we need some way of keeping people on topic and close posts if they get carried away.

First, let me say that I loathe political correctness, and, in general, am opposed to censorship. On the other hand, I greatly favor tact, and consideration for others. Because I have the "right" to say something doesn't necessarily mean that saying it is the "right" thing to do.

The difference between censorship and tact is that tact is voluntary. It is the generous gift of taking other peoples feelings, beliefs, and opinions into consideration before stating one's own. It is a gift I enjoy giving. That's not to say that I haven't stepped on some toes at one time or another. I'm sure I've failed at times. But, at least I am secure in the belief that such was NOT my intent.

I feel that, all too often, things go to downhill because someone is too lazy, to self indulgent, to inconsiderate to think of others before stating just exactly what is on their mind. For example, I have taken exception to some posts which have included references to bodily functions. Since this is a public forum with unknown numbers of women and children, and not a locker room, I feel this is not the place for that.

If that makes me appear to be a namby pamby in anyone's eyes, so be it. I can assure you it's not the words that bother me. At my age, most of you would have to use each of those words 100 times a day to catch up to the number of times I've used them. What bothers me is the self indulgent lack of consideration for others. That has, and will, always bother me, and I suspect I will always respond negatively to it. I am a firm believer in the doctrine of everything in it's time and place. I don't know about the "time," but I feel strongly this just ain't the "place."

One of the mistakes we regular board members make is we start being proprietary about this board. We start thinking of it as "my" board. I think this is what Mike was referring to in his last post, and he has a point. It's not "my" board and it's not "your" board.

There are people on this board who say and do things I don't like and don't respect. There are people on this board who hold opinions with which I disagree. None of that matters. I try very hard to use only two standards for my approval/disapproval of any board member. Does that person make a meaningful contribution to the collective knowledge of this board? Does that person treat others fairly and courteously? (disclaimer: perfection is neither expected nor required. However, striving for perfection is.) If I, within reasonable expectation, can answer "yes" to those questions, then it doesn't matter whether I like them or agree with them.

Regarding politics. I am, I suppose, opposed to political threads. Not because I am opposed to discussing politics, but because we seem incapable of discussing it without getting into a cat fight. We tend to make it personal by attacking the other person as being an idiot for holding their opinion, rather than disagreeing with the opinion itself (see my sig, which is meant more as a reminder to myself than to anyone else).

Regarding religion. I believe there is no God. I would hope that I would not lose anyone's respect for believing as I do, but since it is the truth, I will bear the consequences. However, though I cannot understand how anyone does believe (just as they cannot understand how I don't), I would never try to impose my belief on anyone else, or talk them out of their belief. I try very hard to respect other's beliefs, no matter how different from mine. I only have trouble with believers when they try to impose their beliefs on me or others.

I am, at this point, opposed to a "De-sensitized zone" for basically the same reason that Axiom is opposed to deleting posts and threads. My fear is that such an area, where it is implied that one can say anything one wants, will simply degenerate into one big flame war and insult fest, and be a most unpleasant place.

Frankly, after agonizing over this post for an hour, I can offer no credible solution to the problems we face. Hopefully, something I've said will spur someone else to offer reasonable solutions.

Ajax put it better than I could ever have.

I agree with Jack on this one. Before reading his post, I thought it was a good idea to compartmentalize all the tinderbox posts into one area. However, his port touched upon some topics that got me thinking about the idea more deeply. Now I believe that reserving a special area for posts that are likely to explode is an invitation for the kind of volatility that's hard to contain. A designated area gives implicit permission to fly off the handle, and if someone has flown off the handle on you in that designated area, the effects of that behavior will not stay contained.

Okay, the way you guys put it I would have to agree.

Well done, Jack!

I think that we can police ourselves. We're all adults. This is a tight-knit enough community to handle things like this. It is evident from the replies to your thread.

Let's put it this way... if there was a brick and mortar store, you probably wouldn't have a room where people with disagreements could retire to and go Ed Norton on each other...

And those feelings bleed over into other areas, it's not like someone will leave behind those negative feelings in a DSZ. From my own experience, based on my strong social and political views, my sharing of knowledge in other sections of the forum gets less respect than deserved, so I've quit posting all my 3 page explanations, audio samples and the like (the older users will remember the clips and diagrams)... now I come in, I throw out the occasional Happy Birthday and that sort of thing, but it's just not worth wasting my time with an explanation of a fundamental audio principle that will be shouted down.

We always assume after each post that no, no one will post something volatile and off-topic, yet someone always does.

I have no answers, just suggestions.

Bren R.

I just want to say that there are some topics that should not be discussed on this forum. It should be kept to audio/video, except for The water cooler, and that is basically the reason this subject has come up. Just rename The Water cooler to The Wine Cellar but suggest that no posts be made about politics or religeon. No censorship, but just consideration toward others. Just an idea.

I don't think renaming the Water Cooler is necessary. Neither do I think banning discussion of politics, speaker wire, or your phiosophy on the afterlife is necessary. Just know that if you start or participate in such a topic, you are entirely responsible for your own words and your reaction to other people's words, even when provoked.

You brought up some very good points, Jack. The one thing that drew me to this forum in the beginning was an overall sense of tact. I liked that it was a place where a "newbie" could come in and ask some basic questions to get started in the audio hobby. I didn't get a sense of "my way is the only way and right way to do things," but more of a "let us know what you are looking for and we can steer you in the right direction." I don't know, to me it seems there are more hard-edged stances on topics now which leaves little room for discussion. I don't have any specific examples, but more of a general feeling.

The idea of us being proprietary about the board is a major point. This may lead to "outsiders" being shouted down on hot-button topics.

Well, I'm kinda at a loss for words here. Seems to be too many things to talk about.

There are much more good things about these boards than bad. As in all things, though, the squeaky wheel gets all the attention. There are a lot of good people here that I've enjoyed interacting with. And yes, there are some less than favorable participants that stir up all sorts of crazy action, but they generally don't stick around long.

I like the fact that we do a pretty good job of policing ourselves. Having a de-sensitized zone just begs for all sorts of ugliness.

A special section for discussing controversial political or social, etc. topics which aren't relevant to an AV board solves nothing and is inappropriate.

I disagree, I don't think we need to completely make some topics forbidden because some folks can't argue constructively.

I'd propose just lay down some generic ground rules, non A/V topics are allowed in the water cooler (or whatever you want to call it) but if tempers flare instead of deleting the post make the policy that the thread gets locked (I'd assume that would be a function availble to moderators?).

The bottom line is, if you are a person easily aggitated stay clear of the water cooler or threads in which subjects cause you grief. I don't see changing the forum rules to disallow X topics will be benifical. This is a company A/V forum BUT it has a personal twist where everyone *knows* each other and (have been) allowed to converse in other areas of interest with each other. I'd hate to lose that.

Just a quick thought:
It's generally accepted that on any internet forum, the line gets drawn at attacking another member. Short of that, I don't think we need to ban certain topics.

By and large we are friends here. As people with a common interest, we will likely discuss speakers, amps, speaker wire, movies and music. But as friends, we will likely share (and sometimes take an interest in others') opinions on religion or politics or color of motorcycle.

If discussion about these things bother you, don't read or participate in the thread!. It's as simple as that. The reader has the choice. Sometimes the reader makes the choice to get involved only to say "No Fair! I don't like this topic or that opinion so let's make it go away!" Walk away.

I don't like coffee ice cream, despite being in the minority. Mint chocolate chip? I could go overboard and eat more than what's good for me. I don't ask my local ice cream shop to ban either. My choice; my responsibility for that choice.

What in the world ever happened to taking personal responsibility? Why should the forum as a whole be censored because of a few that just can't help themselves from getting riled up?

"Just walk away!"

I should have added:

Maybe one of the "Post Icons" can be a RED mad face to warn others..... kind of a self-imposed PG-13 or "R" rating!

And, I should have added that I believe we always have to take our hosts into account.

As has come up recently, these are not "my boards" (or "your boards"). They are Ian's and Amie's....they allow us to be here at the risk of us embarrassing them, pure and simple. And make no mistake, we ARE, to some degree, representing Axiom here, especially among newcomers. We shouldn't be using a tone that we wouldn't use if we giving a tour through the Axiom plant to a bunch of potential customers.

The whole reason I posted the "Brokeback thread" was to get others' opinions on whether or not the text would help or hurt the photograph. I was NOT asking for opinions on homosexuality. It's unfortunate that it turned into that, because that was not the point.

This is:

I understand that there's more to this world than the U.S., and that there's more to the U.S. than New Hampshire, and that there is more to N.H. than my own opinion. Things that may be (or may NOT be) accepted here are likely to be different in other countries, states, provinces and minds. The variety of members here is exactly what makes it interesting to take part in a variety of discussions and exactly why I thought these boards would be a good forum for the question, despite it having nothing to do with audio. It is exactly that variety and the (mostly) dignified way we discuss our different opinions that I treasure about the people here.

I'd hate to lose that because sometimes we forget that we can just walk away from a discussion, rather than making it insulting, or personal, or offensive and embarrassing to our hosts.

Well said Mark. And I agree about the "walk away".

Hey, anyone else see the topic rating menu on the bottom left of the board while you're browsing a thread? Maybe we can use that to self-police?

You don't like coffee ice cream? OMG! You are obviously one sick dude and are beyond help! Go to your nearest mental health practitioner right away and ask for carte blanche to the medication cabinet! You are going to need it!

I thought I knew you, man, I really did. Now I see you for what you are. To hell with holding back my analysis, you need a major head cleaning!

Ha ha, happy Friday everyone. Just kidding, Mark ol' pal. I needed a laugh today and you opened the door. I just walked on through.

Hope everyone has a safe and happy Memorial Day weekend!

Same to ya, J.P

Quote:

---

Hope everyone has a safe and happy Memorial Day weekend!

---

Yes...
to jack and all others who served, "Thank You!"...
I hope everyone has a happy and safe holiday weekend!

Wow……I like the paint job around here. It looks so…..what’s the word I’m looking for????.......FESTIVE!! And that little Canadian twist on the PM send button is cute as hell too! I like it, I like it a lot!

Miss Amie asked me if I could weigh in on this topic. I had reservations in doing so as I’m not much of an example to follow considering my totally ignorant PC way of conversing, but I never could say no to a pretty girl. At least I’m assuming she’s pretty, if what she writes has any correlation between the two……. So what the hell, I might as well throw in my nickel.

So it seams as if things have gone south around here to a point in which this “War Zone” concept is even being considered. Well, I’ve been killing time on these boards for about two years now, and to be blunt……..the place has gone way south from where it was two years ago. I’m guilty for this course change as well as many of you are too – so don’t think I’m throwing mud from my ivory tower. I’m not. I’ve got a temper and I say things off the cuff that just come natural to me. It’s just how I talk. I never was much for chit-chat or taking the time to consider how what I say will be taken by EVERYONE. It’s too damn hard and takes too much work because really, there will ALWAYS be SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, who finds conflict with ANYTHING that is said……It’s just human nature. But that’s just being lazy as was already mentioned, and so are a bunch of y’all with what you say and tone you deliver it with. But we all know that communication is what separates humans from other animals, right? Without it, we’d all be rubbing sticks together and living in caves. So it’s all our own personal accountability to take the extra time and effort involved with considering other points of view and beliefs, and do our best to not say hurtful things. We should also be accountable to take the time and try to understand how others see things. We are all different and see things differently. To understand does not mean to agree, but everyone should at least try to UNDERSTAND and not ASUME that what they say is what we THINK they are saying.

The accoutabity piece is the hard part. At work there is a hammer at a supervisor’s disposal to hold folks accountable for what they do and how they do it. It’s called a paycheck. At home it’s taking the kid’s X-box away or something else in the form of punishment. But on an internet discussion forum, holding someone accountability for their actions is quite difficult. Not only difficult, but a downright pain in the but for the moderators. I know, I was a moderator years ago on a racing forum. If you think audio/video enthusiasts are a feisty bunch, just try to disagree with racing enthusiasts. God forbid if someone has a preference for nitrous over forced injection, or if aluminum heads are better than iron heads. Speaker wires is a walk in the park in comparison. I absolutely hated being a moderator. Deleting posts, cleaning up strings, banning folks, trying to keep the piece with teenagers that ‘know it all’, blah, blah, blah….it sucked. But without moderators on those boards, it would be a free for all of hate and discontent. Lot of work for the moderators, but it was / is necessary. I think it is also necessary for these Axiom boards as well. Someone with a level head that can see all THREE sides to a conversation to smooth the waters will go a long ways in keeping the piece. Not only that, but it would eliminate the “posse” mentality around here that has always been a peeve of mine. A posse is nothing more than a mild form of a vigilante squad in my opinion. They support their personal views and way of thinking, which isn’t always middle ground or it’s skewed to their way of thinking.

Some of you have made comments to the effect of “we can police ourselves”, “we are mature”, “this is a different group”, or “just walk away”. I say BS to all that. We are not that mature and every one of you has a hot button that when pushed, you react. Sometimes I know I need to not open a thread because it’s just bound to be controversial. But do I not open it?? Heck no I don’t! There’s some sort of morbid curiosity that I just can’t stand which makes me click the button! Then I see something that just pisses me off and I feel as if I just HAVE to say my piece! And then there’s those times when an innocent looking post turns controversial and no one is the wiser when they first open the string. Then WHACK! It hits me and I have to say me piece again. I don’t think I’m alone with this ether. So to say that anyone can choose to read something or not, is not the answer in my opinion. Which brings my ramblings back to the meat of this topic. Should there be a place to discuss controversial topics with a “enter at your own risk, check your baggage at the door before leaving” type of board??

This has both pro’s and con’s. It gives some folks who enjoy talking about these controversial topics a place to do it away from the rest of us who don’t. Unfortunately, that morbid curiosity sets in and pretty soon us folks who don’t want any part of that stuff end up “ taking a little peak”, just to see what’s going on ‘in there’. Then the fighting starts and feeling get hurt. We then hold grudges and the fighting and hard feelings carrie over to the other boards. I’ve seen these “anything goes” boards and they get ugly. Very ugly. Bren made a good point too. He was right on the mark with what he said. I’m still holding a grudge against him for what he said to me months ago. I ignore him for the most part. Childish on my part I know, but it’s there and I’m being honest about it. Same with Peter and Adam. They’ve said things to me that pissed me off. I’m still mad at them. And I’m pretty certain that I’ve said things to others and that they are still pissed at me over. The one common denominator with these hurtful things and bad feelings is the controversial topics that each of us are passionate about. It can’t be helped as we are all just humans. If we didn’t have things that we are passionate about, we’d be a pretty damn boring bunch of mindless zombies.

If this was a democracy, my vote would be for this:

Keep the Water Cooler as is, but set ground rules. No discussions pertaining to the “hot topics”, period. Delete them if they come up. Some examples would be – politics, religion, sex (including sexual preferences), abortion / right for life, environmental discussions and world trade. Those are what come to mind to me right now as having extreme right / left points of view. There is rarely, if ever, middle ground with these topics and they are best left discussed with relationships that are very strong and secure.

No more forum member vigilantly squads. Install a button on the threads that anyone can click on that would “report” the thread to the moderator for review. If the viewer thinks someone writes something inappropriate or out of line, they can then report it to the moderator. The moderator could then whack it, steer it back on course or leave it be. After all, it’s up to the board owner to determine what’s appropriate or not, - not members.

Do not create an additional board for the controversial topics. I don’t like to make assumptions in general but I’m going to assume that there are forums on the net for these discussions. If you just have a burning desire to talk about China or U.S. foreign policy, do it there, not here. It has no business being here at all.

I also like the “ignore” option. Not really sure how that works, but I can see a lot of value to it. If there is a member that just irritates the hell out of you, then you could ignore them. A very interesting option to me.


OK, so I gave y’all a buck fifty………

……….later

BTW, just gonna point this out, but there is (and has been for a long time) a report to moderator button right below every post. I'm pretty sure it's the one with the "No" symbol through it, 3rd from the left. If you mouse over it, you can usually tell which one it is.

By the way, welcome back.

I am not sure why this is so difficult.

Let's say everyone here, is standing around a mud puddle.

SOMEONE,......stomps their foot in it.

Guess what?.......the mud splatters on EVERYONE.

The focus Should be on the one who did the deed,.......NOT on the Mud covered, innocent bystanders.


Also, is "Graemlins Canadian for "Gremlins"?

Mike:
With all due respect, I disagree with the jist of your post.

You seem to be saying "We're simply not capable of moderating ourselves or watching what we say". You might not be able to, but I am.... and I'll bet 95% of us can and will. If I lived in your world, there would be no coffee or mint chip ice cream available anywhere, because a few don't like it or can't resist it...

I'm not sure what's going on with the I/C references, except that it's hot here and I'm hungry!

There has been an "inform a moderator" button on these boards for as long as I can remember.


Mmmmmmm, ice cream......

Well, so much for tact. Since you feel it's OK to just say what's on your mind without considering others, you certainly won't mind my doing the same, will you?

Quote:

---

I’m not much of an example to follow considering my totally ignorant PC way of conversing,...

---

Well, at least you're aware of it. That's a step in the right direction.

Quote:

---

I’ve got a temper and I say things off the cuff that just come natural to me. It’s just how I talk. I never was much for chit-chat or taking the time to consider how what I say will be taken by EVERYONE. It’s too damn hard and takes too much work

---

Well that sorta backs up what I had to say earlier, doesn't it. By all means take the easy way out . However, you have to be willing to bear the consequences of your actions, such consequences being others indulging themselves, just as you do, by saying just what they think.

Quote:

---

the “posse” mentality around here that has always been a peeve of mine. A posse is nothing more than a mild form of a vigilante squad in my opinion.


No more forum member vigilantly [sic] squads.

---

As long as we're talking about peeves, I find it quite telling that when a large number of members disagree with you, or find your posting style insulting and call you on it, you instantly classify it as a "posse" or "vigilante" mentality. It's a nice way of making yourself appear to be an innocent victim. In the immortal words of Marshall Shelley,

"Solitary shots should be ignored, but when they come from several directions, it's time to pay attention. As someone once said, 'If one calls you a jackass, ignore him. If two call you a jackass, check for hoof prints, If three call you a jackass, get a saddle.' "

Your unwillingness to even consider the possibility that you're out of line, or strive to do better is quite interesting.

Consider this change for your buck fifty.....

While I agree with the implied meaning of that quote, the fact is, if it took criticism by only three others to classify one as equine, we ALL would be wearing saddles.

First, I agree with you completely than an ignore option would be a welcome addition. It leaves in each individual poster's hands an additional tool to help them avoid situations that self-control alone could not accomplish.

I'll have to agree with the other responses to your post, however. A posse implies coordination. That's not the case. We don't all PM each other and say "Hey, let's get that guy in check!"

consensus != posse

Okay, we've had a lot of opinions so far. Here's my proposal, which you can comment on but I won't promise to change.

I think that everyone should make an effort to read their own posts over to be sure comments are about the post, not the poster. Maybe the 'submit' button should actually read 'I swear I read this over and I know what I'm doing.'

I think that I will also start posting a 'Take it to PMs' when I think the topic is potentially offending people. Caveat - we're all offended by different things. If I have not posted that phrase and you are offended, either

a) report it by clicking on 'report a post to moderator'
or
b) post 'Take it to PMs' yourself.

Note: posting 'Take it to PMs', accompanied by accusations, judgements, smirk-emoticons or anything else will not achieve the same goal as just putting the text in.

Let's call a truce on accusations. Let's give this tune-up a try for the next few days and see where we're at.

Sounds reasonable to me!

I agree with your options Amie, especially notify moderator.

Amie:
What does this have to do with ice cream?

Did I miss something?

Aime,

Sounds good to me!

i think that's a great idea Amie. If you find you have to consider an "at your own risk" area still, maybe there is a way to link it to a seperate site, but similar setup so at least it's not posted on Axiomaudio.com....don't know if you can do that easily or not but might be worth a try. Would probably be useful to be able to move threads there too if they get too heated.

I agree, Amie. I will avoid using "Take it to the PMs" facetiously so that its power is not diminished.

Ah dunno wash yer talkin bout, maaan...

Jack, you da bomb baby! I like the way you think.

Although I don't post nearly as much as I used to, I love this board. One of the things that keep this and most other boards and the very world itself interesting is the fact that there is so much diversity.

Along with that diversity comes differences of opinion and it is those differences that cannot and should not be regulated even if it means being exposed to an occasional biggoted or prejudiced or otherwise negative remark or notion or whatever (I don't think any of us can throw stones here). And Jack is right, this is not the place for that sort of thing, but I would find it a little creepy given the diversity of the board members if there wasn't at least some.

People are people and cannot be expected to conform to a specific, narrow criteria for posting and still have an interesting and lively board. How bland would that be? I believe that in order to have an interesting and successful board, you must take the bad along with the good. People often site AVS forum as an out of control zoo of a site with much weirdness going on - and I've not been there enough to say that it is- but I do know that in spite of (and maybe even because of) it's supposed craziness, it is a successful board.

Sure this board is a speaker forum but you can only talk about the subject so much before things start to get a little stale. Besides first time posters and JohnK, who hangs out on this board to talk about speakers/audio only?

<J/K JohnK >


I've always thought how wonderful it is that the owners of this board are progressive enough to let things work themselves out without interference (there have been a few exceptions - the spotted dog incident a long time ago comes to mind....please don't ask!) and not try to micro manage the boards.

Viva Axiom!

Thanks Mike.

/selfishly

I thrive off the argument threads, thats where all the fun is

/selfishly off

Seriously thou, I think we can moderate ourselves somewhat. Some people are prone to getting upset, not much you can do about it. If it's not an arguement about liberalism vs conservatism then it will be solid state vs tubes.