Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater New HT Advice

Hello,
I currently own a Pioneer VSX-D511 and a 5.1 satellite/sub system that I bought a good 5-7 years ago. It's just a simple HTIB that has served me well until I grew a craving for more clairity and definately more bass. Now that I'm almost done university I'm not as budget llimited as I was back then, I am finally looking at getting a better HT. My main goal for this project is bang-for-buck, which led me directly to Axiom. As it stands now, my setup is as follows:

Mains: M22
Center: VP100
Surrounds: QS8
Sub: SVS PB12-NSD
Receiver: Yamaha RX-V659
Cables: 12 Gauge speaker cable from bluejeanscable.com with their Banana Plugs

The purpose will be mainly for movies, but I will be playing music on it constantly while doing homework. My current room is about 11'x14'x7' (WxLxH), but that is only for the next year or two until I move out after I'm done University.

I'm still not quite set on the sub. I hear the EP350 sounds great for music since it's very fast and more accurate, but lacks the low range punch that I've heard the SVS's are great for. That's why I'm leaning strongly towards the PB12 as it has plently of punch for movies (or so I've heard). The PB12 comes to about $800 CDN with shipping and duties, so the price is almost identical to the EP350. I am also considering the HSU VTF-3 and 2, but the VTF-3 seems like a little too much money for me right now, and I'm guessing that the VTF-2 is a step back from the PB12, probably similar to the PB10.

Now just a week ago, PaulM graciously offered to let me audition his system. It sounded excellent, very clear, defined, and shook my bones when it decided to. The two things in particular that he recommended I listen to were The Eagles: Hotel California (DTS DVD-Video) and the opening train scene from Polar Express. The Eagles was amazing, it sounded like it was real. It's one of those things that's hard to explain with words. I was so impressed with it that I'm currently looking around to try and get my hands on a copy to listen to on my new system when I get it . Now I know what all the reviews were talking about saying that Axioms bring the concert to your home. As for Polar Express, that is exactly the experience I was looking from from a sub. It starts off quiet as the train approaches, then slowly builds until the sound is literally shaking you in your seat. Needless to say, the rest of the system brought the scene to life with crystal clairity and great surround effects. Great stuff. I really appreciate Paul doing that for me.

To tell the truth, I liked his system so much that I've tailored almost my whole system the same as what he has :P. The only difference is that I am considering the PB12 as opposed to his PB10 and I'm looking at a different receiver. The larger sub may not be necessary, but that's why I'd like your opinions.

Is the PB12 going to overpower the rest of the system? If I'm not looking to upgrade for quite some time, is it worth it or strongly suggested to drop the extra cash for a VP150, or is the VP100 still excellent, just not quite enough for really big rooms? Any advice on the Yami receiver, or suggestion for others in the same price range?

Sorry for the long post . I'm just experiencing a 'slight' amount of buyers excitement .
Any help or suggestions are greatly appreciated.


EDIT: I forgot to ask about Axiom's free High Gloss Cherry upgrade. Does anyone know if that's only available on new speakers, or can I receive the same free upgrade if I wait for Factory outlet ones? I would like the extra 10% off, but not at the expense of losing out on the High Gloss finish. Thanks again.

Jason, welcome. In your present room size(and even in a fairly larger future location)you might save a bit by using QS4s and I'd also suggest that you consider a vertical M2 center.

The PB12(or any other component)can't "overpower" the rest, since you calibrate the levels to match. Nevertheless, again considering room sizes, the PB10 or other similar should be plenty for your needs.

The 659 is excellent and a real bargain. You might also consider the Onkyo 604 in a similar price range.

My thought is that the high-gloss cherry upgrade requires a special order and isn't available from the factory outlet(which incidentally uses "new" speakers, but with possibly a slight cosmetic blemish), but contact Axiom directly for specific information.

Jason,

Although I am not yet an owner, I too was looking at a VERY similar setup to yours.

I actually do have the RX-V659 (got it $150 off at a liquidation sale), but no speakers yet.

I as well was looking at the PB12-NSD. THe fact is, it is just HUGE! I suggest building a to scale drawing of your room in excel or something, because actually seeing the size of that beast on a scaled drawing will probably suprise you. And given your room size, you don't have as much spare space to work with.

According to my calculations about a month ago, the PB12-NSD will be around $850CAD with brokerage fees and taxes (PST and GST).

If you DO decide to go with SVS in the end, wait for their Canadian Counterpart to open shop (was supposed to be at the end of Sep), they will be shipping direct from canada therefore getting rid of the brokerage fees and some other fees as well I think.

I haven't ordered yet, But I have decided to go with the EP500, you just can't beat it! (my room is 14 x 16)

In return to cover the extra costs of the EP500, i will be downgrading from a VP150 to a single vertical M22 for a centre, and QS8s down to QS4s (I still may use QS8s for the sides, by QS4s are def. in for the rears). As well I will be using M22s as the mains.

I agree with John using an M2 as a centre channel. I am sure Bridgeman will chime in here pretty soon. He in the past has used an M2 as a centre channel (pretty sure anyway).

-Hutz

Thanks for the suggestions.

I have sized out the PB12 in my room with a tape measure, and I saw the PB10 in person. My main reason for heading for the PB12 over the PB10 is the extra bass extension. I absolutely love when a big explosion hits you in the chest with bass and continues to rattle your bones with the rumbling that follows. And I do realize that it is huge, but I have a nice pile of accumulated junk (textbooks, old school work, etc.) at the front of my room that occupies space that I can't use currently anyways. This would give me incentive to finally clean that up .

Now there is logical reasoning for having that junk where it is. Call me crazy, but a month ago or so, I tryed out that sub-crawling technique and I only slightly moved my sub and everything sounded way louder and cleaner. For some reason, I moved something in my room (probably from the 'pile') and totally destroyed the good sound from my new sub placement. I simply could not get that same sound back. Then all of a sudden, I have no idea what I did, but it was back. So until I get my new system (as long as that happens soon) I have decided not to touch anything in the pile... You gotta love how picky cheap subs really are .

Anyways, back on topic. What trade offs am I looking at with going with the QS4's instead of QS8's? I saw that the QS8's carry bass much better (-9db goes down to ~60Hz, while I think the QS4's only go to 90). Now I know that this reading represents a fairly large drop off in SPL level at these frequencies, but quiet bass is better then no bass. I guess i could cross over those frequencies to the sub, but is that going to sacrafice the surround experience?

I have also looked into the possibility of getting the EP500, and I simply can't stretch my budget enough to get that right now. If you say it's WAY better then the PB12, I may get the PB10 for now and upgrade to the EP500 later if I happen to move to a larger room and desire the extra bass slam. I also don't think my parents would appreciate me rattling the nails out of the walls in their second floor bedroom from mine in the basement .

I really appreciate the heads up on the SVS Canada store. Do you have a link to a website they're setting up, or any contact where I can keep an eye out for when they're opening? I don't mind holding out for a few weeks or a month if it saves me $100.

As for the M2 center, what tradeoff would I be looking at there? I've always heard that the center channel is the most important movies, which is the main purpose of my setup.

>>Now there is logical reasoning for having that junk where it is. Call me crazy, but a month ago or so, I tryed out that sub-crawling technique and I only slightly moved my sub and everything sounded way louder and cleaner.

This may be a result of some sort of bass trapping, I am not sure how effective old textbooks and junk is, but if it effectivly eliminates the bass frequency's gathering in that corner then the more power to ya!

While on the topic of bass trapping, sice you have a smaller room, i suggest bass traps on all 4 corners of your room. Something like this will provide an exponential improvement on bass clarity and response in your room. I plan on bass trapping all the corners in my home theatre once it is done. Remember to use 4" of rigid 703 for your bass traps.

>>What trade offs am I looking at with going with the QS4's instead of QS8's?

I think others will agree with the fact that in a room your size you will not notice much of a difference from the QS8s to the QS4s. Your room isn't big enough to notice the sonic difference in the 2 speakers.

However, if you are future proofing for a bigger room in the future, opt for the QS8s.

>>I guess i could cross over those frequencies to the sub, but is that going to sacrafice the surround experience?

I do not think so because if your sub is placed correctly then you will not be able to tell where the bass is coming from. It should be omni-directional.

>>If you say it's WAY better then the PB12, I may get the PB10 for now and upgrade to the EP500 later...

I have no hands on experience concerning the PB12 compared to the EP500. But just by looking at the specs, the EP500 is in a different league of its own. Its not only the fact that it can play louder, but if you have a small room it will still respond to frequencies as low as 15hz when turned down. So its not about how loud the sub goes for me, its about how will it respond when I am using it for all purposes (music, theatre).

>>I really appreciate the heads up on the SVS Canada store. Do you have a link to a website they're setting up, or any contact where I can keep an eye out for when they're opening?

I am not sure I am allowed to give links on here for competitors, i'll give you a pm.

>>As for the M2 center, what tradeoff would I be looking at there? I've always heard that the center channel is the most important movies, which is the main purpose of my setup.

No clue here, I'll let someone else handle this one!

-Hutz

i was reading up here and kept hearing you guys talking about crawling around to figure out your bass. How does all this work? just got my ep350 myself and i guess i need to set it up also.

Hey panhead,
I'm not sure if I can post links, but I'll PM it to you for a quick read. It seems to work very well.

Hutzal,
I totally agree with you that the EP500 is in a different league then the PB12, the only problem is that the prices agree with that. I would have to downgrade my whole setup to M2's to work that into the same price range, which I don't see as a logical solution :P. So that leaves me comparing the PB10 and PB12 to the EP350. Maybe in a few more years when I find a bigger room I'll invest in an EP500 .

Oh ya, and you are probably spot on with the bass trap idea for my current sub. Since I'm living at home, my 'theater' is actually my basement bedroom , so there's a lot of absorbing material (bed, carpet, a hanging ceiling, whatever it's called.... valted ceiling?). Also, my room is the weirdest shape you've ever seen. The basic shape is a rectangle, but the front right corner is an angled doorway, the front left is recessed with a bookshelf in the recession, and at the back right there is a big opening into a walk-in-closet/storage space. There's also a beam hanging down from the ceiling about 8" going straight across my room... Not exactly the ideal place to have a home theater, but it's what I have so I make the best of it .

I asked earlier if a PB12 would overpower the rest of the system, and I guess this didn't make much sense. I'm trying to find out if I'm going to have to turn the gain way down on it when I level test it with the rest of the system? For instance, watching a movie I have the fronts, center, and surrounds playing at 80% of their capacity (totally theoretical). I'm wondering if the volume that they put out will only allow me to run the PB12 at say 40-50% of it's max power to be playing at the same level? If this is the case, then maybe the PB10 would be a better fit as it would be closer to 80% of it's max at the same time of the rest of the system........ Does this make any sense??? Or is that ideal to have a lot of headroom with your sub for those really boomy scenes, or if I move into a bigger room? I guess I also get the extra extension with the bigger sub.

I 'am' building this to be future-proof. This is why I am building a system capable of handling a bigger room then I currently have. When I do move out, I won't have the cash to upgrade to a bigger system so I want the one I buy now to be sufficient for at least a few years until I get settled in and get a steady flow of cash going around before I upgrade anything. If I like this as much as the system I auditioned (which I'm sure I will), then I'm looking at keeping this around for several years to come.

Again, thanks for the suggestions. Keep them coming

>>If this is the case, then maybe the PB10 would be a better fit.

I am sure almost everyone here will agree with your room size the PB10 will be more than enough.

-Hutz

Sounds good. But how big of a room can the PB10 fill once I move out? Is the difference is response between the two anything I should consider? I'm now just looking at the future-proofing aspects if I go with the PB10 now.

Sorry if these are all dumb questions. I haven't really been into sub shopping a whole lot during my younger years :P.

EDIT: I just had a thought... what a rare event :P. Anyways, since I was/am considering the EP350, but my outlooks and opinions on it are totally based on reviews and other people's opinions, maybe I should give it a shot and hear it for myself, then decide whether it is enought or not. Axiom has that wonderful 30-Day Money back Guarantee, I could just give it a shot and see if it surprizes me. I have been satisfied with a tiny 6-8" (not even sure what it is), 80W sub up till now... well not satisfied, but lived with . What do you think? Are there any costs involved if I decide not to keep it (i.e. restocking fee, return shipping)?

you need to pay return shipping. There may be some people in your area that have an EP350.

Here is one:

Edmonton, AB - M60Ti, VP100, QS8, EP350, M22Ti (SeanF)

PM him, he probably would be more than willing to demo for you.

-Hutz

I've actually tried contacting SeanF already. After Amie tried long and hard to get ahold of him, she found out that he was too busy travelling and working to give me an audition anytime soon. I really appreciate the idea though.

Even if I had to pay shipping, I may do it anyways. If Axiom's subs sound anything as good as their speakers, I may end up keeping it after all. I would have the matching finish if I do that... So many things to consider.

>>So many things to consider.

Just don't develop OCD like the rest of us...

-Hutz

Hey, I haven't bought anything new for my AV setup for 2 weeks!

Regarding the M2 center, I tried both a single M2 and a pair of M2s after my M60s arrived. My feeling was that a pair of M2s (lying on their sides) was noticeably better than a single M2 even after carefully adjusting levels, but the pair of M2s looked really wierd on my 27" TV. I ended up with a VP100 and found it seemed *slightly* more clear than the pair of M2s but didn't spend a lot of time comparing.

A single M2 hit its volume limits too soon when paired with the M60s. I think an M22 center would be fine with M22 or M60 mains.

Well now I'm down to deciding between an M22 or VP100 for the center. The prices are almost identical, so that's no issue ($20 or something). Same drivers on both, but the M22 is ported while the VP100 is sealed (have I got that right?). I'm leaning towards the VP100 since it has the WTW setup and is designed specifically to be a center channel, so I think it will fulfill this purpose better...

I also think the VP100 would be easier to mount since it's made to be on it's side (which is how it will probably end up).

I just heard back from JC at Axiom tonight and he said that there is no additional charge if I choose not to keep the EP350, even with the free HG Cherry finish. It's looking like I'll give that a try to have a fair comparison with the SVS subs that I've been looking into up till now.

Does anyone know any good Canadian online retailers or stores that sell the Yamaha RX-V659? I'm having a hard time finding it for a decent price around here, and bought from the US will likely be >$450, how much more I'm not sure.

Hey, Jason, I too was at that audition at PaulM's last week. It was sweet. I haven't yet ordered my M60's though. I'm thinking of going with the 150 for the centre. Aren't they the best for the centre, I see some discussion of others for that use. Why is that?
When you get your speakers, I'll have to come and give them a listen.

Hey graphicsman,
Well the talk of other speakers for the center is concered with my small room and reducing the price of the system a little. I think I'll go with the VP100 since it's a specifically designed center channel. I don't think I'll have a need for the extra power of the VP150 for quite some time, so I'll stick with this for now and maybe upgrade later. When I get everything set up and sounding good, you're welcome to drop by for a listen. I hope you plan on returning the favor .


Okay, new issue open for discussion. I've been scrambling to try and find a good deal on the RX-V659 here in Canada, and nothing seems to be cheap. All the stores I can find that carry it are Authorized Yamaha dealers, so they're set at $699. Importing from the US is an option, but with the reveiver costing $325-400 US and another $200 or so of shipping of duties/taxes, it''s no longer a great deal and also won't come with warranty. But, after some shopping, I found Futureshop has the Yamaha HTR5960 (nearly identical to the RX-V659, just no Zone 2 capabilities) and the Pioneer VSX-1016TXV on sale for $599 (both $100 off). I was considering the Pioneer before but due to price difference, I decided on the Yamaha. So it's up for grabs again since they're going to be the same price in the end. Now the deal gets a little better. If I go over to Bestbuy, which also sells the two models, I can pricematch and they also offer 10% of the reduced price. I figure that I may be able to talk them into giving me 15% off which would bring either units down to ~$510 + tax. So that sounds like a good enough deal since I would get the warranty and I have a 14 day grace period if I decide to return it for some reason.

So what do you guys think, Yamaha HTR5960 or Pioneer VSX-1016TXV?

>>I think I'll go with the VP100 since it's a specifically designed center channel.

I was going to go with the VP100, alas I am opting for the M22 centre. I am not sure how much better/worse it is than the VP100 but I do know the M22s have gotten rave reviews from the entire industry, and there are muliple users on this board that prefer the sound of the M22 to the VP100 or the VP150

-Hutz

>>I got the impression that the $500 price was an accident...

In Calgary Soundsaround has a yearly liquidation sale. They had the RX-V659 for $500. I opted for the extra $50 for 5 year warranty, the total for my RX-V659 was like $590 or something including a 5 year warranty and taxes.

If you can find it for $570 you are in good shape. I doubt it includes the iPod dock.

They even had the RX-V2600 for $989...My wife wouldn't let me spend $500 more...damn it would have been nice.

-Hutz

Hey Jared,
Ya, I realized that I screwed up thinking that it was going to be 10% off the reduced price instead of the 10% of the difference extra. That would be sweet. Anyways, I have proved that Futureshop will pricematch BestBuy and still offer 10% of the difference extra. BestBuy had a Thanksgiving sale on the HTR-5960 for $559.99, and Futureshop had it on for $599.99. I got it for $554.99, so I even got an extra $1 above their promised 10% of the difference . I found out online that the HTR-5960 is practically identical to the RX-V659, except that it doesn't have Zone 2 capabilities. The faceplate is also a little different, but looks don't mean all that much for a receiver.

So I have the receiver now, I'm planning on ordering the speakers today, as well as the cable from monoprice.com. I'm still pondering what to use for a center channel. It seems that quite a few people suggest using an M22 for the center, but since it is ported I'm worried that it will not be quite as accurate as the sealed VP speakers. Another concern I'm having about using an M22 for the center is placement. I'd rather have the center on it's side, and if I do that with the M22 the tweeter isn't centered, so the sound may be a little off axis. I'm probably going with a VP100, but I'm just doing a little last minute research before I call in my order.

Jason, if you must have the center speaker positioned horizontally you'd lose the benefit of having an M2 or M22(or for that matter a vertically positioned VP100) providing smoother and wider horizontal dispersion. If horizontal is a firm requirement, go with the VP100.

Hey John,
I'm glad your opinion backs up my thinking since I just placed the order a few hours ago . Here's what I went with:

Fronts: M22
Center: VP100
Surrounds: QS8
Subwoofer: EP350
Finish: High Gloss Cherry (Free )

And yes, in my current room with my restricted space, horizontal positioning is a must. When I move out, then I may be able to work it either way. Oh well. I'm happy with my decision since I heard the VP100 when I auditioned PaulM's setup and I was quite happy with it.

Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate it

Now begins the never-ending wait of 4 weeks... .

Jason
I'm glad the audition helped you with your decision about whether Axioms provided you the sound you were looking for and then what models to consider.

If you want a hand balancing the sound levels etc. or want to borrow my SPL, give me a shout. When done I'd love to hear the setup, especially the EP350.

Cheers - Paul