Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners A couple of receiver questions...

Hi,
I'm currently running a 5.1 M22, VP100, M2, HSU Sub setup. Over the next year or so I plan on upgrading that to an M60/M80, VP150 QS8 setup, but before I do that I need to upgrade to an HDMI receiver so I can get HD audio from my PS3. (Tastes: 75% Movies/25% Music)

I was going to go with the Denon 2808, but recently my budget was hacked in two and I'm left with around 500-600 dollars. Now, I want to get something with great sound quality that will satisfy me now but also be more than capapble once I complete my speaker upgrades My research has led me to the upcoming Marantz SR4002. SO I have 2 questions...

1. Is anyone using Marantz with their Axiom setup? How do you like it. I know some brands are supposed to be good with Axiom (HK/Denon) while others aren't so much(Sony/Yamaha). But I haven't seen any mention of marantz in these forums.
2. Will the 80 WPC of the SR4002 be enough for my future speakers? I currently have a 120WPC Sony which I'm sure isn't actually constanctly running 120WPC. (Not at $350 anyway)I'm sure the marantz will have a better sound quality, but will I be losing anything major by falling to 80WPC (90WPC if I splurge for the 5002)

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

What receiver are you running now? Are you happy with your present sound pressure level?

I currently have a Sony STR-DE998. I'm pretty happy with it, although I'm not sure I would know what I'm missing. I was amazed when I upgraded from my hand me down speakers to my current axiom setup.

That amp is rated at 110W/channel. I thought that perhaps if it's rated at 80W/channel or less and are satisfied with its power output, you would also be satisfied with the Marantz.

To determine whether you'll be happy with 80W/channel, you'll need to know your current nominal sound pressure level, distance from the speakers and room dimensions. For reference, I listen to 85dB nominal (with my sub on) at 8 feet away from the M80s in a 4,000 cubic foot room with a nominal half watt per channel out of my 90W/channel Denon.

I know an ol boy that bought some M80s hooked up his Sony receiver and it promptly shut down. Not all watts a created equal.

Well, my room is about 3000 sq ft and I also sit 8 ft away. The music I am currently listening to is registering 73db on my SPL meter. Granted this is casual music listening i suppose an action movie with explosion and such would be averaging out slightly higher, but I would estimate I wouldn't be any higher than you at 85db. That being said, if 90wpc is good enough for you I would assume the same for me?

Am I understanding the equation correctly?

Btw Mojo, you've mentioned the wattage used for a given SPL, distance and speaker sensitivity before. Are you actually measuring the wattage draw from the receiver, or relying on one of those on-line SPL calculators?

Just curious. The real reason I ask is that I'm not sure what "nominal wattage" really tells me. Even if the nominal draw is .5 watts, are there still peak draws that require much more current?

Prisoner, I've been interested in two receivers that are around your price range. I have no personal experience with them, but both seem to be reviewed pretty well.

Onkyo TX-SR605 90wpc, Which can be had for about $400 - $500

Onkyo TX-SR705 100wpc, Which runs about $650 right now and has a few more bells and whistles.

They might be worth checking out.

Yeah, I've read that several times, and although I implicitly believe Alan on all subjects Audio, I still don't know how much is enough.

For example, I'm pretty sure that I need more that .5 watts per channel.

FWIW, I recently purchased one of those Radio Shack SPL Meters and I was surprised. I really thought that to me, loud music would measure over 100 db's -- maybe it's just some macho thing. What surprised me, was that "reasonably loud" was only 85db's and "pretty damn loud" was just 90db's. At that level, my HK3480 (120wpc) had lots of room left on the volume dial...

I've heard bad things about the Onkyos. Such as overheating issues and problems with the the video scaling. ( i.e. forced 4:3 on 480i sources and downscaling of 1080p over component)

It was enough to make me look elsewhere which I became interested in the Marantz. I've heard they have good audiophile cred and they don't have an on board video scaling chip which I prefer.

I know a not too ol boy who connected his M80s to his wife's 2.2W boombox and listeners couldn't tell the difference between that and his Denon :D.

I don't know what the equation is. I know that there are on-line calculators that try to tell you but I haven't spent enough time to determine whether they can be trusted.

But to answer your question, if you are satisfied with 73 to 85dB in your 3,000 cubic foot room at 8 feet away, then a 90W/channel amp should do you just fine. You're planning on 60s vs. my 80s (which are more sensitive) but based on recent testing that jakewash and I did, the sensitivity of the 60s is pretty darned close to the 80s.

I'm thinking that old boy should have rid himself of that high dollar Denon and kept the 2.2W boombox to power up them Axiom 80v2 floorstanders .... just a waste of money if'n you ask me!

Now that is a good one Rick. If there is no difference why the heck not.

Sure. Peaks would definitely draw more. Some music may require 18dB peaks which would mean 32W with a half watt nominal. So even if you listen at nominal levels of 1 W/channel, 18dB peaks would require 64W. That still leaves you ample room with a 90W/channel amp.

If you know the speaker SPL at a specified distance with a specified power, you can estimate the SPL at any distance and any power. The M22 for example has a sensitivity of 89dB/W/3 feet. At 9 feet, the SPL is 83dB. Two M22s would give rise to 86dB. Since you are reporting 75dB, most likely your amp is sourcing less than 1 Watt. I say most likely because there are room effects too.

I've measured the power into my M80s at 50Hz and I also know exactly where my Denon starts to distort and where it starts to square-wave. Look for my post titled something to the effect of power into my M80s from my cheap Denon. I've figured that I listen to music at about a half watt nominal and movies at a few watts.

Good for you for trying to understand this yourself practically rather than just reading articles.

And yes, you definitely need more than half a watt because there are peaks that must be accounted for. 90W should be adequate based on what you consider loud. I would say that if you listen to neo-classical, you may need 200W/channel. I have 90W and it is barely enough for some classical if I really want to make my 'nads shiver. However, since I don't listen to classical very often, I am not rushing out to get a new amp. 90W for me is over-kill for 99.9% of my needs.

Priz, a couple of things that you mention that you're "sure" of are highly unlikely. First, if your present Sony is rated at 110 watts per channel, you can be confident that it would actually deliver that at maximum output. As we discussed earlier this year, that rating has to be met in a lab test(no home audio use is this severe)for at least five minutes continuously under FTC regulations which apply to all receivers sold in the U.S. Failing to meet the advertised power rating would be a violation of the law and manufacturers aren't foolish enough to do it. This is confirmed by AV magazine lab tests on the units in question.

Next, if your Sony is operating within its designed power limits it's amplifying the entire audible frequency flat and with inaudibly low noise and distortion. This is all that any amplifier can do(sound processing is a separate matter)and there's no good reason to expect better sound from the Marantz unit.

As to the power ratings involved, keep in mind that at a comfortably loud average listening level your speakers will be using no more than about 1 watt. Brief peaks use much more, of course, depending on how wide the dynamic range of the material being played is. The difference between 80 watts and 110 watts is only about 1.4 dB in maximum sound level possible at peaks, for example 106.4 dB compared to 105 dB. It's unlikely that the difference would be significant in your use, so if the 4002 has the features that you want, you shouldn't hesitate because of the power rating. I'd agree however that the the new Onkyo 705 would be an excellent candidate and should be considered.

Actually Rick, I could get away with the boombox for most music but it definitely doesn't cut it with movies. And I do like to crank it up from time to time :). I would never, ever recommend anyone buy a 2.3W/channel amp.

Randy, they couldn't tell the difference at a half watt per channel. A "distortion-free" watt is a watt no matter what amp it comes from.

Cool, I don't know how I missed that one. I'll look for it when Search is working again.

I'm not saying I'm "sure" of anything. I was only referring to the fact that I have heard it mentioned that many of these cheaper receivers aren't "honest" about the wattage. This is usually in comparison to receivers such as HK which seems to list it's receivers with lower power.

I'm am not saying I know the truth of this matter, just that this is how it has been described to me in the past. I mean there is already some discrepancy as to the WPC as my receiver has a sticker saying 120 watts on the outside yet I am being told here that it is rated at 110.

I think I have now seen that 90 watts should be enough for me in my space. That being said, does anyone have any experience running a Marantz receiver with axiom speakers? Is it one of the "good brands" or is that just a myth?

Priz, keep in mind that many audio forums are quagmires of misinformation, usually well-intentioned, but good intentions are no substitute for accuracy.

This is where I found the spec for 110W/channel. I'm sure it can do 120W albeit at a higher but probably negligible THD.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about with the Marantz. I've read nothing negative about them.

No doubt, that's why I asked.

I didn't mean to imply that I doubted the specs you gave me, but more that I doubted the sticker's accuracy.

I think, in the end, I am just putting too much emphasis on wattage. And, trying to determine why a cheap Sony receiver can have 120 watts at $350 while the Marantz has 90 watts at $700 has led me to determine I should probably take other things into account.

You're close here, any receiver should be fine with the Axioms, unless you plan to run M80's. As the M80's are a 4ohm load you need to have a receiver that can handle it. This is where H/K & Denon are the most reliable along their entire line. You will be able to find other brands that can power the 80's but it may only be some of their models.

I know that my Yamaha is excellent with my Axioms and if I choose to go to 80's it will be able to power them with no issue as per reviews/tests.

Good luck in your search and as a previous H/K owner I can attest to the wattage/power issue you mentioned in another post. Certain brands like H/K have lower wattage ratings, ie 55 watts/channel, and can really hold their own with other 100 watt/channel rivals in their class.

Hey HAY!

On a an unrelated topic, I find your avatar to be really, really well done and representative of Axiom owners' feelings about their children... I ment speakers course.

I should have been more complete in my original post and given you a reference for the power information.

Thank you very much. I created the avatar with an M3 and since I didn't own them I thought that was wrong and had to pick up a set, win win situation

Yes; a critter trying his best to escape with his prized possession is truly to the letter of the feelings of some diehard Axiom owners indeed!

We evacuated three times during hurricane season in '04; and each time I took my M3s with me!

Thankfully we haven't had anything too serious come along since then.....my new M50s are HEAVY!










....I know not as heavy as M80s, but at MY age they FEEL like M80s!