Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Axiom products being tested in Erie ...

Hi guys, it has been a while. I had a long chat with Ian today, and we are looking at three products for three on going evaluations we have set up in the AVS forum ...

1. A pair of floorstanders - Ian is deciding between M60's and M80's to put up against Swan 6.2's, Rocket 850's, Rocket 760's, and Def Tech BP-10's.

2. A pair of M3's against Dana 630's, Acculine A-1, NHT Classic 2, AV123 XL-S, Elemental Design MTM, SVS SCS-01, SVS SBS-01, and Usher 520'2.

3. EP-350 Series 3

It will be sometime in November that these arrive here, and I am looking forward to having more Axiom in the house.

Good to see you Craig. That sounds exciting!

I kind of wish that it was AVFun instead of AVScience.

I'm always interested in hearing the honest and eloquent opinions of trusted audiophiles. I'm a little less interested in squabbling about test validity. Just tell me when YOUR executive summary is ready.

Why don't you throw a pair of Hsu bookshelves into group 2?

WoW! Craigsub is back in da house. Hope we see more of you around here.

Thanks for the welcome back, guys.

Here is an update on the current bookshelf thread .. in summary form:

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As the title suggests, I am tired of the subwoofer shootouts, and am back on my feet, so it is time for a test which I have been thinking about ... bookshelf speakers.

I have a custom built speaker switcher, which allows level matching between up to 4 pairs of speakers, and instant switching from the seats.

For each speaker pair, several listeners were involved, and all listening was done under blind conditions, with level matching employed between each pair of speakers for switching purposes.

The SVS SCS-01 pair ($349 ID) was characterized as follows ...

1. Depth of soundstage is excellent.
2. Microdynamics (subtle clues are more easily discerned. As an example, there some sea-gulls in the Roger Waters SACD "In The Flesh", the SC-01 plays them very clearly).
3. Reproduction of vocals - both male and female was excellent
4. Percussive instruments are very accurate, while brass instruments lacked a bit in the immediacy of the live instrument.
5. Width of soundstage is limited to inside the speakers.
6. Bass was very good, as long as an 80 Hz crossover was used.


The PSB Image B-25 pair ($479 B/M) was characterized as follows ...

1. Depth of soundstage was quite good.
2. The width of the soundstage was wider than the speakers, but not quite in the league of the Ascends.
3. Microdynamics were as good as the SVS, with subtle clues coming through clearly.
4. Vocals were excellent, including male and female. with a bit more "smooth" a presentation.
5. Percussive instruments were very good, as were brass instruments. Live guitar was not quite as well done, but was good... just a little "soft".
6. Bass was quite good, and a 60 Hz crossover can be used.


The NHT Classic 2 pair ($600 B/M) was characterized as follows ...

1. Depth and Width of soundstage was better than any of the other speakers.
2. Microdynamics were outstanding, and again, superior to the other contestants.
3. Macrodynamics were lacking. We were using the Emotiva LPA-1 for all the speakers here, which is substantial power. The NHT's just don't like "going loud".
4. Within their limits, vocals, brass, percussive instruments, and guitar were all presented with excellent results.
5. Bass was pretty good, but with dynamics limited. For Home theater, a 100 Hz crossover is recommended.


The AV123 X-LS pair ($299 ID) was characterized as follows ...

1. Depth and width of soundstage was very close to that of the PSB's ... very good on both, with just a bit more depth.
2. Microdynamics were excellent, not quite matching the NHT's, but on about a par with the SVS SC-01's.
3. Macrodynamics were a bit behind the PSB's, with almost the same amount of ability to "crank".
4. Vocals were outstanding, with a smooth presentation of both male and female vocals.
5. Percussive instrument presentation was the best of the group, while brass instruments and guitar was very good. Guitar was a little soft.
6. Bass was excellent, with a 60 Hz crossover easily handled.

The Elemental Designs A6-5T5 MTM ($200 ID) speakers were characterized as follows ...

1. Depth and width fairly shallow and narrow compared to the more expensive speakers.
2. Microdynamics were very good - almost matching the X-LS.
3. Macrodynamics were excellent - almost matching the PSB's.
4. Vocals were very good - a slight stridency in female vocals compared to the more expensive stuff, but for $200, very slight.
5. Percussive instruments were excellent - lots of snap to a snare drum, and brass instruments were very good. Again, the more expensive speakers were better, but the eD's were better than expected for $200.
6. Bass was quite limited, with a 100 Hz crossover recommended.


As a side note - the eD speakers, with the subwoofer (A2-300) are quite the bargain for someone looking for an inexpensive 5.1 system.

The Dana Audio model 630 speaker pair ($349 ID) were characterized as follows:

1. Depth and width were a match for the best in the test yet. They slightly bested the NHT's in both arenas.
2. Microdynamics were excellent - again a close match for the NHT's.
3. Macrodynamics were about on a par with the PSB's, and was excellent.
4. Vocals were also at the top of all the bookshelf designs ... Tony Bennett's duet with KD Lang on his MTV SACD is outstanding.
5. Percussive instruments were handled with ease, lots of snap to the snare drum, and brass instruments were outstanding in presense.
6. Bass extension was quite limited, with a 100 Hz crossover recommended.

Acculine A1/A2

1. Depth and width were excellent on both loudspeakers, and among the best in the test.
2. Microdynamics were excellent, one of the best in the test.
3. Macrodynamics were quite good, but not at the top of the list.
4. Female vocals were excellent, while male vocals were slightly "weak".
5. Brass instruments were very good, and percussion quite accurate, but not quite as dynamic as the best.
6. Bass extension was quite limited, with a 100 Hz crossover recommended.
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And here is the subwoofer summary sheet:

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The scoring summary ...

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Here is the scoring summary with the Home Theater score and Music score, respectively shown as (HT-M).

Prices and whether the items are available Internet Direct or from a store are now included. Keep in mind that ID pricing will usually be firm, or slightly discounted, where some ID products will see substantial discounts. BM = Brick and Mortar. ID = Internet Direct. ID/SI = shipping included.

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2000 shipped ID): 116 points (63-53)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48) * see below
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 97 points (54-43)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
Hsu VTF-3 HO w/o Turbo ($899 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III + Turbo ($799 ID): 92 points (45-47)
Hsu VTF-3 Mark III w/o Turbo ($699 ID): 91 points (45-46)
SVS PB12-Ultra: 90 points (47-43)
Axiom EP-500 ($1230 ID/SI): 90 points (43-47)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III + Turbo ($599 ID): 88 points (42-46)
SVS PB12-Plus/2 ($1299 ID): 87 points (47-40)
SVS PB12-NSD ($599 ID): 86 points (43-43)
Hsu VTF-2 Mark III w/o Turbo ($499 ID): 86 points (40-46)
Rocket UFW-12 ($999 ID): 85 points (provisional) (35-50)
Acculine A-sub ($289 ID/SI): 85 points (provisional, currently out of production) (40-45)
Elemental Designs A2-300 ($350 ID/SI): 83 points (44-39)
SVS PB10-NSD ($429 ID): 83 points (43-40)
Dana Audio 600 ($869 ID): 83 points (36-47)
Rocket X-Sub ($199 ID): 78 points (34-44)
BIC H-100 ($229 eBay): 78 points (40-38)
Rocket Tyke: 60 points (If you care, PM me ... )

Pending subwoofers ...

AV123 BMF ... Not sure of date
AV123 MFW-15 ... Not sure of date
Epik Valor, Castle and Conquest ... Not sure of date
Axiom EP-350 Series 3 ... Not sure of date

Craig, are those monster subs that scored so high transparent and musical sounding? In other words, can they be beauties or are they just beasts?

I'd be curious to find out Ian's thought process on deciding between the 60 and the 80.

Mojo - They are also very musical. Rijax was at the September GTG at our place, and was able to listen to the dual 18 inch, Elemental Designs A7-900 (a 435 pound subwoofer) playing outdoors ... even from about 120 feet, it was musical and powerful.

Of course, it makes an EP-600 look petite, and my wife, who never frowned at FOUR EP-600's in our room 2 years ago, was not pleased with this beast.

Thanks, Craig. Does anyone have any idea how they manage a $2K price-point with such a beast? I would imagine shipping is extra?

Rijax = Ajax. Dats me.

Craig, tell, 'em about how 3 points difference is equal to about a 15% difference in performance. Have I got that correct?

Good to see you here, my friend.

Hmmm...that ED sub looks like it has 100Hz brick-wall filter as well. The FR curve doesn't go above 100Hz.

I'd not only be curious about the 3 point difference but also the entire procedure for scoring (unless of course that's what you consider your IP).

Straight from there site " Free UPS Ground Shipping So it weighs as much as your house. So what? We figured we'd do another unthinkable thing and foot the bill for the shipping charges on this monster. Only for US 48 States".

I'd buy one if I lived a little more south, but then again I would have to use it for my house if I did.

That's just unbelievable. I have no idea how they can offer something like that and still make a decent profit.

Seems to me like they are just trying to obliterate the competition and just might do it.

Hey Craig, good to see you're doing well my friend.

I can testify that the ED A7-900 sounded terrific with music. However, it was in an outdoor situation (no room interaction). I'm not that good at guestimating distances, but I'd wager we were around 200 feet from the ED and a pair of old Klipsch Cornwalls, and the combination sounded absolutely fantastic!

In the photo below, you can see where we were sitting on the patio, and you can see one of the Cornwalls in the garage opening in the background. The sub was in the garage opening to the right of the Cornwall.




I would recommend that all keep in mind that these are Craig's opinions and evaluations. There is no "right" or "wrong" about them. We all have the choice of accepting or or rejecting his findings as we chose.

For example, John (Jakeman) doesn't rate the new SVS Ultra as highly as does Craig. Neither guy is wrong. We are not dealing with absolutes here.

I would also remind all that this is not a list of one great sub and a bunch of junk. Because a given sub doesn't score at the top doesn't mean it's a piece of crap. I have an EP500, which scores somewhere in the middle of Craig's list, and I don't feel in the least deprived. My EP500 does everything I want and need.

I would love to see Craig break his list into groups of Outstanding, Excellent, Great, Good, etc., or something similar, just to make the point that there are a lot of subwoofers worthy of consideration on that list.
I'll let Craig elaborate, but I know he uses a combination of measurements and listening evaluations to reach his conclusions.

Craig, if I have misled anyone, or misrepresented anything, I will not mind if the least if you correct me and set things straight.

Jack, other than we also get a variety of opinions on the subs, that is a pretty good summary.

There are SO many other variables, such as subwoofer size, looks, etc ... that come into play. For example, in the past 2 weeks, guys needed something fairly compact, but with high output ... and for under $1500. The EP-500 is perfect for that need.

If size and looks are no object, the A7-900 is amazing.

For REALLY compact, yet stellar performance, one needs to experience the JL Audio Fathom. From what I am seeing, it is like the model 400 on steroids.

The new Ultra-13 is a medium-large sub that is pretty good looking, yet delivers super-sub performance.

The Fathoms are twice the price of the 400 though and even more if you want the low frequency performance of the 400. Craig, have you heard the Fathom and the 400? I love the front-mounted controls of these subs.

The ED box is too impractical in my opinion. I couldn't imagine getting it down my basement stairs. For something with this amount of power, does it matter where it is placed in a 4,000 cubic foot room?

It looks like you made a mistake posting here. Now we'll never let you go .

Greetings Craig. Good to see you posting here again and spreading your wisdom, and I'm not just talking about subs. I hope it helps your healing.

As Jack pointed out its not necessary or even desirable that we all have the same views about these generally great subs. Everyone's objectives and listening requirements are going to differ and there are certain aspects of bass reproduction which only come across when comparing subs side by side which is my preferred way of determining relative performance.

Jack mentioned I don't have as high regard for the Ultra-13 as Craig. Actually I think its a very good HT sub but in the Richmond Hill shootout I preferred the JL113 and the DD-18 for music over it while Craig ranks them lower on both counts. The JL113 which I also own performs so much better with music and almost as good with HT so I do rank it superior to the Ultra overall. I disregard the fact that the amp in the Ultra has a high failure rate.

Also in our listening session with Jack, Craig, Ray and Bossobass at Craig's place in 2005 the overall consensus was the EP500 was better sounding than the old SVS Ultra yet Craig's ranking has them the same. That's fine and the ranking is a terrific indicator of relative performance as Craig sees it.

One principle we both share involves putting as much or more emphasis on listening tests as we do on graphical measurements. The specs and graphs never show the complete story yet it never fails to amaze me how many people can make mountains out of an inconsequential measurement.

Hello Craig,

Great to see you posting here again. Many months ago, I had pm'd you at AVS about the EP-500 and your reply was "I think you will be floored at what the EP-500 adds to the mix. Until you have experienced powerful 20 Hz bass, you don't know what you are missing. It is a great addition for the $1200." You had the admirable strength of judgement to simply advise me on my consideration and didn't offer up a "better" sub by pushing your rankings dictate my choice. You deserve a lot of credit for taking the time to test the subs ("it's just a hobby,"...right?) and keeping common sense intact.

John

PS: Like Jack, who also echoed your sentiments, I am enjoying my EP-500 tremendously.

Mojo - I have not experienced the 400 as of yet, but after reading John's (jakeman's) posts, it may get added this winter.

John - When we do the tests here, they are not only level matched, but the subs are listened to blind and we also use a Velodyne SMS-1 to EQ them. It isn't so much that the Ultra sounded "better" to anyone than the Velodyne or the Fathom ... it just had more visceral punch in the really deep stuff - below 25 Hz.

When testing is done blind, people are often surprised at the results, including their own. Of course, blind testing us rather a chore, and not necessary unless someone is crazy enough to post results in a ratings scale.

If one looks at the ratings, "HT" and "M" ratings are given for each unit, and in the case of the old Ultra vs. the EP-500, the 500 "won" the music by 4 points, while the Ultra "won" HT by 4 points.

The Ultra gained in, for example, its output at 16 Hz in the WOTW Pods emerge scene.

The ratings are also not just "mine". I get input from guys who build systems for large arenas - such as one of the new Casinos in Niagara Falls.

The ratings as a points setting is hopefully "some" help in narrowing down a subwoofer purchase. I leave out such items as size, finish, etc ... as those are pretty easily read.

And ... in regards to Axiom ... I had a VERY early EP-500 here. It will be interesting to see (well, hear) if the driver has improved at all ... the EP-350.3 will have some very good competition, for sure.

Finally ... Ian knows about this, and so does Jack.

I will be entering the audio world soon ... specifically in 2 areas:

1. Room treatments, including Bass Traps and diffusors.
2. Entry level audio equipment ... a place to send your friends for good stuff ... when they won't spend $1300 on an entry level Axiom 5.1 system.

Yes, when I stated that the list is Craig's opinion, I negligently omitted the fact that Craig has others over for listening tests and factors their responses into his ratings. Mea culpa, mea culpa!


Well, that lets the cat outa the bag.

I had to opportunity to hear some of Craig's entry level stuff at the recent GTG at his home, and came away quite impressed. We all have friends and acquaintances who, for one reason or another (WAF?, size?, etc), are interested in teeny cube systems (and we all know the product to which I am referring ) , and who are even willing to lay out that kind of money. Well, there will soon be available some products you can recommend that will perform better, look better, and cost a whole heck of a lot less.

These are small speakers, but not quite as small as cube speakers. Truthfully, when Craig carried them into the room, my first thought was "Oh Please! Don't make us suffer through listening to these things" . I got a heck of a shock when he paired them with a modest subwoofer and let them go.

Don't misunderstand, I don't believe these products are meant to, nor, IMHO, will they, compete with Axiom, AV123, or any similar brands. But, for those who can't (or don't want to) spend the money on, or deal with the size of, those offerings, Craig's product may very well be the answer - a great sounding, small system that will fit their budget.

I apologize for this coming across more like an ad than I intended. You may all now chastise and berate me .

Craig, Just the fact that you have gone through all the effort to produce a long list of subs you have tested and heard is in itself a valuable contribution. I enjoy your informed posts since you seem to get your hands on many of the latest toys earlier than most. And the fact you take the time to throw in the occasional graph is an added bonus. It must be frustrating taking potshots from the crowd that use a few limited measurements to prejudge the quality of any sub. And yet you always conduct yourself with dignity. Looks good on you.

My view of ranking many of those subs would vary much more than yours in the music category and less so in the HT category. I can see where you have tended to favour subs with more extension which to a certain extent does makes an impact, particularly on that Steely Dan test track you like to play. Yet, when the deepest bass note comes at 27hz from a piano it seems to me that extension is not the most important attribute unless organ music is your thing. I would suggest detailed, articulation which comes from linear FR, low levels of odd order THD and extraneous noise, and excellent transient response which produces nice tight sounding bass are all more important characteristics in sub music reproduction. How well a sub reproduces mid to high bass which is where most music resides and where I listen intently, is the area of the band that distinguishes the musical sub from the not so musical sub.

Hence when we gathered to listen to the Ultra-13, Servov2 and JL-113 at PBCs, the four listeners including myself all gave the nod to the ported SVS sub for HT compared to the sealed subs. However, with music the Ultra just could not produce musical sound as realistically as the JL113 across any of the many tunes we played but it did compare well musically with the Servov2. In that regard we were all unanimous. I receive many PMs asking me to comment on your ranking and usually reply that all opinions are worthwile and we don't all have to agree for them to be worthwhile.

I'd have to agree with Jack's suggestion that using a more generic ranking criteria, especially in the music category, rather than a numerical one would make more sense. Yet I recognize that ranking represents your personal views. In any event, whenever I am asked to compare my views to yours on these subs I do remind them that the ranking is a terrific contribution which represents your criteria and musical tastes. Its all good fun stuff.

And by the way congratulations on your new venture. Is that part of the Canadian business plan you once suggested we get together on a while ago?

I look forward to the review of the EP350 v3. Thanks for reviewing the sub for us!

There is already one product out there that is in the same category and that is the Hsu Ventriloquist system. I wonder how Craig’s will fair against it.

fare.

Thanks Craig. I assume all is well healthwise, I seem to remember you had a bit of an incident.

I used some of your info to help decide on a STF-3 and am loving it. Now I was thinking of M3's or PSB Alpha's, but will be interesting to see how they compare to the Image B25's, which I think have better bass response than the Alpha's.

The local fellas are setting up an Axiom GTG here in Calgary and I'll get a chance to listen to M3's myself anyways, but still interesting to see competitive comparisons.

ctown, I'm happy to report that Craig has recovered nicely from the illness he went through last winter. However, I regret to inform everyone that Craig lost his younger sister last Thursday. I do not have all the details, but she was very ill, and his parents had to make the difficult decision to take her off life support. I can't imagine ever making a more difficult decision.

Thanks Jack, it's good to hear that Craig's health issues are taken care of but it's also very sad to hear about his sister, that had to have been a heart wrenching decision. If you speak with Craig can you pass along my regards.

That is very sad news, I wish the family the best.

Good morning - it is a sad time in our family, for sure. Thanks for the kind words.

This review-testing is also now going to provide some therapy here, keeping busy helps.

I did talk to Ian last week, and am waiting a delivery estimate for the M3's, 60/80's and 350.3 ... once that is confirmed, I will let you know.