Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Home Theater Receiver vs Separates

Long time reader, first time poster.

So here's the issue: I'm running my 80-500 system with an older Marantz AV receiver. The receiver makes a crackling sound when playing movies. Sounds like an old film projector running in the background. (I understand this is not uncommon for this model), so I've got to get something else.
I was pretty sold on the new Onkyo 805. I was leaning towards the 605 or the 705, but would like to have the piece of mind of a receiver that is rated for 4ohms. However, I ran into some very positive feedback on the Emotiva systems, of which their Ultra system is current priced BELOW the 805.
Which raises the question, given equal pricing and perceived quality (not to mention Emotiva carries a full 5 year warranty), should one go with separates vs. receiver?
I've always assumed that a separate system gives additional flexibility and better power management (more headroom) than receivers. However, I also beleive much of the separates hype is just that- hype.
I do like to run my system loud at times (esp for movies), and I do have a fairly large space- great room with 15ft vaulted ceiling)
The 805 route gives me the 130watts x 7, Onkyo name, TrueHD and maybe one or two other processing benies, Brown DACs, and a smaller package.
The Emotiva package gives me 125watts x 6, 5 year warranty, and flexibility to get an upgraded pre-pro if/when decoding systems change (or just get it re-programmed or re-fitted?), and a beast of an amp that may or may not offer more 'headroom' than the 805.

So, I respect all ya's ideas/opinions/perspectives. What would you do? (What would Jesus do? What would -ALAN- do?!)

Thanks very much

Excellent question.

One other thing worth considering is that the Onkyo has the Audyssey Multi EQ system. People who have used that high-end version of the room equalization software seem to believe in it. I am of the opinion that the room might be more important than the head room

But I'm tempted by the Emo stuff, too. I think I'm going to wait for version 2 so that I can get some more elegant HDMI switching out of the deal.

If I had to get something NOW, I'd probably get the Onkyo. You could always use it as a processor and upgrade the amp later if you felt like you needed to.

I do respect the opinions of those with more experience than I. There is a compelling case that getting the amps out of the processor chassis might mike a difference in SQ.

Good luck, and please post your decision and experience

6ave has been running a killer deal on the denon 3808, which is driving my 80-500 5.1 system LOUD with no problems whatsover.

you have to call them to get the deal.

MSRP $1599, can be had for $1098 if you call and ask.

Tell them you heard they were running a sale at AVS forum.

just another option for yah.

Thanks for the referal, but for $750 the 805 is all I need to spend (would rather spend less!).

I have the 805 and it is a very good amp driving very well the dynamic range of SACDs and DVD-Audio.

I think they are selling the denon 2808 for $800 which is MSRP $1299.

Heck, you may even ask what kind of price they will give you for the onkyo. Their prices are WAY cheaper over the phone. I'd say find what you want, and try giving em a call.

I think they are authorized dealers of everything they sell

For what its worth I also have the Onkyo 805 and am pleased with it.

The 2808 would be an excellent choice.

However, if you are going to do separates and and attach a separate amp. you can simply move down the AVR chain to get the features you want and let the amp do the heavy lifting. That might mean that a 1908 would fit your needs.

The general equation is an AVR provides more features/less power while separates provide fewer features/more power.

One other question for you to answer - which option will make you happiest.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.
I'd be happy with either choice really. Just curious if there really would be that much of a power advantage with the separate amp. Onkyo is rated at 130, the Emotiva at 125. <shrug>. Think the Emotiva will offer that much extra headroom?

Their amps are probably alot more robust than Onkyo...especially with the 4 ohm M80s, the watts/channel don't matter as much as the quality of the amp (so I understand).

The 805/875 has a whole new power supply design (what is truly important) and also new dual push-pull allowing them to support 3Ohms.

I think I would opt for the seperates given the chance. You can always update the pre/pro and the amps will always be useful.

The A1400-8 is in my plans... somewhere in 08 or 09... could actually be Jan 08!

Nice

A1400: talk about headroom!
I'm leaning ever so slightly towards the Emos, as I like the flexibility and easy upgradability. And the Audessy feature has gotten mixed reviews (that I've read anyway). But the rest of the 805 looks mightly tempting.

Webbs, welcome. The standard shouldn't be "perceived quality", but rather the reality of actual audible performance; perceptions(especially on some audio discussion boards)sometimes bear little resemblance to the reality of a situation. Engineers have learned how to design receivers which have audibly flat frequency response together with inaudibly low noise and distortion. This is available to us these days at quite modest cost and in the vast majority of cases a receiver is the sensible cost-effective option. Using two or three boxes instead of one doesn't carry any magic with it.

Any amplifier can drive any speaker, including one rated at 4 ohms, and doesn't know what the impedance is. It has to supply the necessary voltage and current, as determined by Ohm's Law, for a certain amount of power required for a given loudness level. When it does that the impedance of the speaker doesn't matter, so the question is how loud and how long a certain amp/speaker combination can operate.

It's highly likely that the Onkyo 805(or even the 705)which you're considering will fully meet your needs. Possibly the best buy at this time would be the factory refurb offered by Accessories4less , an authorized dealer, for about $700 with free shipping.

Thanks John. I was hoping you would chime in here. Could you expand on a couple points for me?

Axiom recommends certain receivers that are 'capable' of driving 4ohms (Denon, Sherwood, etc). A receiver not 'capable' of driving 4ohms at the loudness level I like could either damage the receiver and/or the speakers, yes? (not saying the 805 is in that camp, as its clearly not, just asking for askings sake)

Alan has recommended going with a powerful amp for the m80s, especially if you have a big room and like it loud, mostly to avoid clipping, which will cause distortion at the least, and speaker damage at the most. Thus their A1400 monster. Where do you fall on this issue? If headroom is important, then perhaps a more 'robust' amp would be of value, as suggested by a previous poster?

Thanks

What Emotiva are you looking at, and to what SPL levels do you listen? Also, how big is your room and how far back would you be listening.

The reason I ask is I owned the MPS-1 for 3 months and it kept shutting down when driving my 80's at levels I would not call insane. Granted, I have a very very large room to fill. My Denon 2805 alone never shut down at higher levels (however did show signs of distress/clipping).

My current Odyssey Khartago Extremes mono's don't even break a sweat at louder levels.

Another thing that I have found is that like the Axiom amp, louder levels with no distress or clipping do not bring fatigue to your ears like a receiver or seperates with minimal headroom.

jm2c

goodness. If 200 watts won't do it for you...wow.
I was looking at the LPA-1. 125 watts
never measured SPL levels. Won't listen at 'insane' levels very often due to baby and wife in the house. But there are those infrequent bachelor moments...
The room is a great room that includes kitchen, dining, living, entry way. I'd say the main space is about 500 sq ft, with a 15ft vaulted ceiling. Maybe not quite that big, but close.
Official listening position has yet to be established (remodel project going on), but figure around 12 feet.

That is why I sent it back, there is no reason that 2 of those MPS-1 mono amps driving efficient 80's should have been shutting down when they did. The sound was outstanding up until the point that they would shut off. The problem was a built in circuitry limiter which would shut off prematurely, in my opinion.

There were times when we were just watching movies and during explosion scenes one of the amps would occasionlly shut off during those dynamic peaks. And we don't watch movies at insane volumes, maybe -15dB on the Denon dial.

I don't want to stir up an old debate as I think Emotiva products are great, and it is possible that they have resolved those issues. I was not the only one having the issues, others on AV123 with 4ohm Rocket bookshelves were having the same problem.

Of course they said I was playing it to loud, which I wasn't. That is ok, my Odyssey's keep a smile on my face, true solid state monoblocks based on German Symphony engineering.

If the combination of loudness and time got too long for a particular receiver(or separate amplifier)and it started to overheat, the protective circuits would simply shut it down and the amplifier wouldn't suffer any permanent damage. The overheating possibility has no effect on the speakers; there the requirement is clean power, and the amount needed has no necessary connection with impedance. Sensitivity of the speaker is a determining factor, and the M80s, for example, are slightly above average in sensitivity and require less power than many speakers with an 8 ohm nominal rating(such as my M22s).

Sure, enough maximum power capacity for a particular use is needed, but in the vast majority of cases typical receivers with power ratings in the 100-200 watt(only 3dB difference)area are more than enough. Unused headroom is simply that: unused.

Last week I was listening to the M80's using an Audio Trak professional (150 watt into 4 ohms x 6 channels) poweramplifier. Using the Realistic SPL meter, I was getting 102 dB average and peaks as high as 105dB with no clipping what so ever. In a room that is 4000 cubic feet. I was approaching concert volume levels. It was as clear as a bell. Now I don't normally listen at those levels as I value my hearing, but is was nice to know I can get there if I want to.

My point is, I don't think you can accruatly detemine how much power you require without an SPL meter. It is as important as a tape measure is to a carpenter.

Before you can decide weather to go separates or not, you need to determine how much power you require, or will require in the future. If you want to get to near concert volume levels (105dB or greater) in a 4000 cubic plus room, I don't think a AVR is going to get you there. However, if 90db is all you need, then a 100 watt AVR should be fine. Generally speaking.

Has anybody seen any bench tests for the 805?

Sure, Tom; the 805 review by Brian Florian includes a significant amount of lab test data. S&V tested the 875 rather than the 805, but except for the Reon video processor in the 875 there's very little difference(the power ratings used are 130 and 140), so you might take a look at the 875 lab results .

Thank you, JohnK.

Hey thanks guys for all the input and discussion. Very helpful.

Im now pretty much set to buy the 805. Wife says I need to sell my Legacy Speakers first

(unscrupulous plug: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330196033445&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:1123)

Again, thanks. I'll keep you 'posted' with the developments.

Why would they do a 'A' rated noise level spec. in the lab result tests? I am guessing to eliminate the sub output, but if so why not just run the test sans sub and C weighted, to give us a much better picture of what this receiver will do?

Jason, when amplifiers are tested, the standard procedure is to specify the noise measured with an A weighting, rather than giving the raw number. This has nothing to do with subs or the C weighting and low frequencies.

Up-date

Just purchased a refurb'd 805 from Onkyo for 619, free shipping. Had to jump on that! Should be home in 5 days. I'll let you know how it all works out.

Thanks again for the solid feedback.

Merry Christmas/Happy Hannukah/Happy Festivus

Brady

Just read a recent post from Alan recommending AGAINST Onkyo. Anyone know why (Alan?)?

He doesn't recommend Onkyo units when driving a 4 ohm load. I have an older Onkyo for H/T (non Axiom) that I am extremely happy with.

Keep in mind, the $50 Radio Shack meter is great for calibrating and what not, but it is not as fast as some of the more expensive meters.

For example, you could have a 15-20dB jump during a dynamic passage of a song, however, the Radio Shack meter may only show you a 5dB swing as it can't react in time like professional lab meters.

I believe this was the problem I was having when my previous Emotiva amp kept shutting down my 80s. The meter only showed jumps of 5-6dB, when in fact I was getting 15-20dB spikes.

got my 805 in last night. set it up (putting sub out plugged into multi-channel first of course - rookie mistake-), and played away. Sound was ok, but was lacking something. Lopsided sound, too bright. I was shutting things down, pressing buttons here and there to see what they did (what? read the manual you say? bleh), and ran into the magic button- 'pure audio'. Big big grin. "Oh, so -that's- what bass is supposed to sound like" very very nice. I'm looking forward to the endless hours of tweaking. My system is currently in the bedroom while I finish up a living room remodel, so I can only discover so much. But having fun so far.
Thanks for the input everyone.