Axiom Home Page Forums General Discussion Advice from Axiom Owners Another sub question....

OK, I've been meaning to ask this for awhile, but I feel, out of courtesy to our hosts, a little hesitant to ask.

Most know my background situation. In short, a small, square 13' x 13' room. Enormous swings seat-to-seat in bass response. Room treatments that would reduce peaks and nulls appreciably would take up a third of the cubic feet available, so no dice.

I've never been terribly happy with my 350V2. I don't blame the sub, I blame the room.

We're planning on replacing our furniture in the not-too-distant future. Currently:



We're thinking that instead of a sectional, we'll have a separate couch and loveseat in there with an end table in each corner. I'm thinking that I will build the end tables myself, to allow for a sub to fit under each. Hopefully, the dual subs will help even things out and provide for some "oomph" (chest thumping). I'm not getting that now. I like base Bass.

I don't need huge levels of output if I have two subs in a small room; I'd rather see deeper frequency response and "musicality"… though I've never really heard the difference between a musical sub and one that's tone deaf. Performance with movies is probably more of an issue than music.

Two HSU VTF-2 MK3s would cost $1104 shipped. They're rated to 18Hz, but there's no +/- so I have no idea how meaningful that is. They're available in Maple, and from a distance, might match up with the Beech Axioms OK.

Two Outlaw LFM-1 Plus subs would be $1257 shipped because they offer a special price on two. Rated to 16Hz, +/- 2 dB. Black only.

Two Axiom EP350V3s would cost $1364 shipped (Factory Outlet). Response is rated to 28Hz, +/- 3 dB. Matching Beech is available & supports one of my favorite companies!

I keep looking at Outlaw because of the low response.

Two 400s or 500s would be tempting, but really priced higher than what I'm looking to spend and serious overkill for my small room.. Color matching might not be an issue if I "build an end table around it". It's hard to ignore the recent favorable reviews of the 350V3.

Any thoughts from you sub gurus?

Edit:
PMs are cool....

You have a lot to think about Mark. I'm not 100% sure the specs on the 350v3 are totally accurate. They are the same as the previous 350, and I don't think Axiom has completed any new anechoic tests yet. Also, "in-room" it is rated at 18hz, which is more realistic for real world situations outside the chamber.

I can tell you from my initial tests, this new 350 is light years ahead of the original 350, they continue to impress me with low gut wrenching LFE.

Mark, that is awesome that you're trying to fix your room problems. I'm currently running three subs and they do a great job of evening out the response (I've measured with my SPL).

Hmm, I'm thinking if you put the two subs in corners you're not getting the true benefit of multiple subs--they will both reinforce or not play certain frequencies. I had better luck with midwall or thirds on each wall. Easier said than done, though because you have furniture to fit in. And in a small room there is just not that many placement options.

As for which subs to get, hoo boy, that's a tough one. Because it seems to be the new hot item I'd be inclined to try the new Axiom 350.

On the other hand, Hsu and Outlaw are great subs too. I have a Hsu VTF3 mkII in maple and I love it. The maple is a fair tonal match to the Mansfield Beech. I don't have any pictures of my old M40s and Hsu together to give you a comparison. My sub sits out in the open and the lighter color is excellent and seems less obtrusive.

I'd say the low end response between the Hsu and Outlaw is negligible. I believe Mike (mdrew) has an Outlaw sub. You might send him a PM and ask him about it. From what I remember he really likes it.

Wasn't the Outlaw designed by Dr. Hsu? I have a very similar room so I am looking forward to your results.

I haven't heard the other 2 but the Ep350v3 will give that added bass you are missing from the V2 and you would probably only need 1, the v2 is anemic compared to the v3. I have heard an ST3 and it was pretty good and for a room of your size would also work great, but the v3 I think is a smoother sounding sub.

The Outlaws, as far as I know, are pretty much re-cabinets of Hsu subs--the STF series, I believe.

Also, wouldn't you get a trade-in bump on the Axioms?

You can believe the Hsu sub will go down to at least the advertised specs. My STF 3 was advertised to be tuned to 25hz and it has very strong out put at 20hz. Dr. Hsu has always rated his products very conservative.

The Outlaw Plus series are more like the Hsu VTF subs.

My theory is that Axiom doesn't want to publish the true specs for the 350v3 because they are too close to the DSP-based subs. The 350v3 may lack frequency response linerity compared to the DSP subs but I really don't think your ears care about that so much when it comes to bass. And a hump here or there may actually be more pleasing to our human ears.

What the 350v3 lacks in linearity, it makes up with its better transient response compared to the DSP subs. Or at least it sounds to me like the transient response is better because I hear attacks and it sounds "tighter".

From all of the different subs I've heard in my 4,000 cubic foot room, the 350v3 sounds the best and is excellent value for the money.

I will vouch that the 350v3's are amazing. I need to do more testing, but at this point for the money they are a great deal, especially from the FO.

I love the conspiracy theory idea.

Hopefully someone local will buy a v3 someday and we can test it against my v1.
Someday soon pickupmykeys and i will be getting together to compare the EP350 and EP500.

Hmmmm... I'll have to check into that. I had assumed that the trade-in program was really only beneficial if you were taking a pretty serious step upwards....

Having heard none of these, I can only take your word(s) for how good the new 350V3 is. There's been a few threads where members have asked about the new specs without a reply if I remember, right(?).

I don't know how much stock I personally put into a "not publishing specs so sales of the 500 don't suffer" theory. It seems that from what I'm seeing, if they don't publish the new specs the sales of the 350 itself would suffer in comparison to other manufacturer's offerings.

I certainly LIKE the idea of giving my money to the Axiom folks...

Hmmmm ... (again).

It looks like if I traded-in, I could get two of the new 350s for $1061. I don't quite get the full tade-in value for my old one with the two new ones, but if I added a pair of M3s to the cart I'd get the full value of the trade-in...(saving $100 off a pair of M3s!).

THAT sounds really tempting...though I'd still like to find out how low the new V3s go.....

Mark, when I traded in my M40s for the QS8s I ordered a pair of M3s for the same reason--more trade-in value and a good deal on some great little speakers. Win/win.

Mark, buy an EP350v3 and just have a listen or better yet have it shipped to me and I can run some test tones through it and let you know how low it goes, then you can get another one for yourself

Actually if you wait a bit, I have the SVS counterpart, to the 350, the PB-12NSD, coming[crosses fingers] this week. I know Mojo and Framer are willing to get together one more time for a comparison and we can hopefully do some test tones for you and see how low each goes.

Mark - 2 subs in a 13 x13 room. You are my hero!

With dual subs, you'll need to deal with the nulls, but that is a small price to pay for everything else you gain (headroom, extension and smoothness).

Tak a look here at Craigsub's test results to help you out a bit. Frankly, with the subs you mentioned, you look to be in that sweetspot where you have narrowed your choices down to where you really can't make a mistake with what you buy.

I'm certainly in no rush.... I'd love to read more comparisons!

Ray, I think I would only qualify as a "hero" if I could convince my Mother-in-law to sew a big cushion to use on top of a horizontal 600. Hell, if I could turn a 600 into a loveseat, I'd be my OWN hero!

Such a loveseat would be something alright. It's certainly beat a beaver!

I think the eD A-9(?) classifies as a love seat.

Be careful about the loveseat idea. I was going to do the same with my vertical 600 but then I realized there's no cross-bracing above the driver.

Yeah, but it may lead to some intestinal damage .

It would bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "feel the love"

I'm looking forward to the comparison between the SVS and the 350. I've been doing a lot of reading on subs in the last couple of days and it seems there are a lot of good choices out there in the sub-$1,000 category.

Mark, as Randy pointed out, the currently published specs on the 350v3 may not be totally up to date(for whatever reason). Both the changes in design which were made and reviews, including Alan's double-blind test results, indicate a significant improvement.

As to placement in a square room, simply putting two subs at convenient locations probably won't be significantly helpful with room modes. The literature published by Dr. Toole's colleagues at Harman, and others, indicates mid-points of opposite walls. For example, at mid-points of opposite side walls the subs are at a minimum point for the room length mode and the room width mode is opposite in phase at the two side walls and tends to cancel.

Come on, JohnK...live a little and speculate as to why the specs aren't totally up to date .